Alright so Vayne...

[quote=Beeswarm17]I always thought that [[silver bolts]] really shone as the best skill on Vayne once she had AS items. Before then, it always feels insanely difficult for me to land three hits enough times to really make a dent. Again, that could just be my own poor play. However, there's no cooldown to [[silver bolts]]. It's entirely dependent upon AS to land more of them. I know that you get some with your runes already, but to really get the good AS, you need items, which usually don't come until after the laning ends. So is there not some merit to leveling the other skills first in order to maximize cooldowns and allow more frequent skill usage? I had always felt that cooldowns were the biggest struggles in the laning phase. I'm not refuting your points, though. I haven't had time to test your method to get a feel for it yet. I also appreciate you taking the time to explain it to me. I'm just asking for a bit more clarification in my questions.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]Soooo, once again Duff goes hard-head mode and ignores everything that has been said that is different from how he thinks? Yeaaa.. He's not changing his mind any time soon.[/quote]

[quote=Beeswarm17]I'm not asking him to change his mind. He's found what works for him. Either it stops working and he changes it, or it doesn't stop working and he never changes it. I just find it interesting that there are three different views on what to skill first for Vayne, and I've heard the reasoning behind [[Tumble]] and [[Condemn]]. [[silver bolts]] is less common, so I'm curious to hear it, too. EDIT: Unless you mean that he's not really paying attention to what I'm asking anymore. I'd really rather him not think I'm trying to argue with him, but it's almost 5 AM here, and my typing and comprehension might be a little bit slow to process.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]My comment wasn't directed at you :P[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100]Will have to include another section about leveling [[Silver Bolts]] first in my guide, it seems. I started out maxing [[Tumble]] first and [[Condemn]] last, this changed into [[Condemn]] first and [[Silver Bolts]] last a few weeks ago because leveling a skill first that deals damage based on your AD (which is fairly low during the early game) doesn't make a lot of sense. The same, in my opinion, applied to leveling [[Silver Bolts]] first: your enemies (generally) don't have a lot of health, so increasing the percentage of health they lose if you manage to hit them three times is not the way to go. Also, it's not easy to get in range for 3 autohits without receiving quite some damage from enemy champions or even minions. Duff may have gone into 'hard-head mode', but it might be true that leveling [[Silver Bolts]] deals the highest damage during the early game. Having said that, I'm not a big fan of using AS marks to be able to land 3 hits in a row, that would normally mean you get countered quite easily by armor... :| Once the teamfights start, however, you don't want to be relying on [[Silver Bolts]] damage, you really don't. Unlike a lot of other AD carries, Vayne can become a bursty champion if you level her [[Tumble]] and [[Condemn]] first, which is useful because you'll generally be focused in teamfights and you want to deal as much damage as possible before getting killed yourself. Still though, it's interesting, I will look into it.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Wayne3100] it might be true that leveling [[Silver Bolts]] deals the highest damage during the early game. Having said that, I'm not a big fan of using AS marks to be able to land 3 hits in a row, that would normally mean you get countered quite easily by armor... :|[/quote] You don't get countered by armor because you're not using ArP runes :P You'll just deal more overall damage (and probably damage per second too) with ArP runes than with AS runes.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy][[Vayne]]s main combo is: Autoattack, [[Tumble]]->Autoattack, [[Condemn]]. That will also proc [[silver bolts]]. So, the highest cd of this combo has [[condemn]], so I would level it first. Then decrase the cd of [[tumble]], because you need it to initiate the combo and avoid spells. Finally, [[silver bolts]], because they are everytime there and deal % true dmg. Which means, they are lategame best.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]I get a point in Q/W/E and then skill importance is E>Q>W. Getting R at 6/11/16 (as always). I find the burst damage to be extremely potent when hitting someone into a wall or simply knocking them back. The debate, or arguement rather going on is silly. Silver Bolts deals LESS DPS plain and simple. Early game it is extremely ineffective due to low attack speed values and lack of HP values on targets. The arguement that China whooped ass with the silver bolts set up is irrelevant. The mathimatical superiority is what matters. Player skill comes into context when comparing CLG vs China, as well as builds, runes, opponent defensive values etc. Making the arguement about individual performance is irrelevant as well. I max Condem first and 90% of the time carry does that make either of our set ups worse than the other? Nope So let's get to the facts rather than this cock fight of who's right and who's wrong. The numbers speak for themselves. With only 100 bonus damage from items Condem deals 235 damage simply from using the ability. If knocked into a wall the damage becomes 470 damage. 470/2 seconds=235DPS. (Assuming we target a squishy champ and have enough ArP to hit for true damage) With an attack speed of 1.5, maxing Silver bolts against a target with 2000 HP. From the Silver Bolt procs alone you deal 2000x.08= 160 damage in 2 seconds that's 80 DPS. Same span of time for 155 more damage from maxing Condem first..... Numbers SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES, for more burst potential max Condem first. For less burst and less DPS max silver bolts. The silver bolt proc is equal to (5 damage more actually) Condem when your target has roughly 3k HP. So unless the whole enemy team is rocking out with Warmogs by mid game and are sporting 3k HP each Condem>Silver Bolts. END OF FUCKING DISCUSSION. Oh and an additional note. With only 100 bonus damage it takes an additional 1k HP for Silver Bolts proc to overtake Condem...In case that part of the math eluded anyone...Assuming you hit late game and have doubled your bonus AD (200AD now) Condem still out damages Silver Bolts in terms of DPS You'd be doing close to 240 damage every 3 attacks with Silver Bolt Procs alone. With an ATS value of 2 (2 attacks per second) You deal 470 DPS in 3 seconds or ~156.6 DPS...Still lower than Condem back when we only had 100 bonus AD... Now this is math done in a confined set of parameters not taking in AA damage/Tumble/Armor/Cool Downs/Etc. But for early/mid game damage the math points to Condem being a better skill to level especially against targets with less than ~3k HP.[/quote]

[quote=Beeswarm17]I'm sorry if I'm being aggravating here, but I don't think that's the end of the discussion. Here's why I say this. Add 60 damage to your silver bolts proc. It has flat damage and percentages. You are assuming true damage (or almost true damage) on condemn. That isn't a fair assumption. How many hits of silver bolts can you get in the span of time that condemn is on CD? You have to include the entire duration of the CD as part of the DPS. Assuming your AS of 1.5, you can get 4 hits of silver bolts off in the span of time to hit them with condemn and refresh cooldowns. Therefore, 2000x.08 = 160. Add 60 to get 220. Four hits of that means 880. 880 damage in the time it takes you to hit with condemn and the stun, as well as wait for CD to reduce and do it again. It's also not reduced, like condemn can be. I'm not saying that silver bolts is better, but I think that your numbers are slightly skewed. Condemn is obviously the better solution by your numbers in terms of burst damage. It's a hell of a kill shot. But as far as sustained damage goes, silver bolts will get you farther if you take these numbers into consideration.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS][quote=Beeswarm17] I'm sorry if I'm being aggravating here, but I don't think that's the end of the discussion. Here's why I say this. Add 60 damage to your silver bolts proc. It has flat damage and percentages. You are assuming true damage (or almost true damage) on condemn. That isn't a fair assumption. How many hits of silver bolts can you get in the span of time that condemn is on CD? You have to include the entire duration of the CD as part of the DPS. Assuming your AS of 1.5, you can get 4 hits of silver bolts off in the span of time to hit them with condemn and refresh cooldowns. Therefore, 2000x.08 = 160. Add 60 to get 220. Four hits of that means 880. 880 damage in the time it takes you to hit with condemn and the stun, as well as wait for CD to reduce and do it again. It's also not reduced, like condemn can be. I'm not saying that silver bolts is better, but I think that your numbers are slightly skewed. Condemn is obviously the better solution by your numbers in terms of burst damage. It's a hell of a kill shot. But as far as sustained damage goes, silver bolts will get you farther if you take these numbers into consideration. [/quote] I believe I was taking into account the base bonus damage....If not whoops then my earlier totals come out to 220 damage per proc (oh and the true damage value only pertains to the %HP damage dealt not the base damage of the proc, so offering true damage actually is a fair comparison FOR BOTH skills), still less than 235. So there is that nipped in the bud. I mentioned we'd be going up against squishy targets last I checked mid game armor values for squish champs didn't exceed ~20 armor. Most people get ~20 ArP from runes alone. So dealing true damage is actually quite possible. And I mentioned the HP value required to make Silver bolts COMPRABLE to Condem. 2k HP and that's being generous Nets you 220 damage every 3 hits. And that's silver bolts alone. I understand these numbers are within set parameters so I made them as fair as I possibly could, or I thought I did. Of course if we parsed this out over time Silverbolts (should) win against Condem. That's assuming you remain still and are able to just be a turret. But how often will you be in a fight that lasts long enough or in general where you're not moving (especially with Vayne) that you can get more than 1 or 2 procs of silver bolts off on the same target? You see why I had to reduce the number of variables? If I said you have an AS of 2 but move every 1 second to accomidate a moving team fight you don't AA on the move therefore your AS value counts for less etc etc etc....I made it as fair as I could, but all things considered Vayne is a Burst Assassin with some DPS capabilities. She isn't like Twitch who can nuke a whole team (well not all at once anyway)....Does that make you feel better about my numbers? EDIT: I'm sure some of my intentions or meanings got convoluted. What I've been trying to state/clarify/prove/etc. Is that Condem is the better early game skill to max over Silver Bolts. Aside from the math, (some numbers misrepresented because I initally forgot to put in the 60 base damage from Silver Bolts proc...Which I've fixed in this second post I believe) Condem is still better to have maxed first. It provides instant damage, and a stun. If we really wanted to strip everything down and then parse out a full scenario, I'm still sure with the initial values (100 bonus AD/2k HP target etc.) Condem is still going to deal the most burst (which Im pretty sure is uncontestable) in comparison to Silver Bolts proc. I know if we were to extrapelate this into a fight lasting x seconds Silver bolts would be the top in overall damage. The thing being against most squishy champs you're literally going to kill them within your intial Tumble+Condem+AA+AA+Tumble combo. That's 1 proc of Silver Bolts.[/quote]