Alright so Vayne...

[quote=DuffTime]I will out damage any other Vayne in lane, if they do not skill like me. I can still nail you into a wall. I can still tumble. If you're not leveling Vayne's skills for damage then why not just get 3 points and not level anything? Mindlessly spouting out what high Elo players perceive to be truth is the fastest way to cripple yourself. Inversely, I take what I see to be effective, and I use it. I make my own pages which suit my own play style, and play accordingly. I have done the math, actually, and believe it or not, mathematically, I will out DPS any other skill order. So much so in fact, that it's a no brainer to skill W first. It's superior by leaps and bounds. In fact W is so superior to the other skills, I opted to tack 10% attack speed in runes, JUST to make sure I could land my third shots, when other Vaynes might take Armor pen. When using tumble, it's effortless to land all three shots, you just have to play like a man and make sure your third shot lands.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Mowen: AD Steroids are highly significant because AD is a stat more difficult to acquire then others. [[Eye Of The Storm]] probably added more damage then Silver Bolts did, as the extra AD is applied every hit, as opposed to every 3 hits, including the actual SB proc. @DuffTime: I'm not mindlessly spouting - I base my statements on the status-quo. If the status-quo changes, then I'll start speaking differently - However, it hasn't. Change it, or wait for it to change, before barking your own theories without any backing. Just because you out-damage them doesn't mean you out-play them. And I'm so sorry if you're in the predicament where ALL the vaynes you've faces were bad.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Yet when I lane with Taric I still out DPS any other Vayne skilling. Eye of the storm improved my damage substantially, but a large aspect of my damage being so high was also Silver Bolts ranking up steadily.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@DuffTime: If you're so amazing, climb the ELO ladder. Join a 5-man premade and get to 2200+ ELO and show everyone. That's the line you need to cross to convince anyone. Otherwise, you're wrong - That's how discussions work. Got proof? Everyone cares. No proof? No one cares.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=dufftime]Personally Jhoi, when I'm playing Vayne, I'm going to hit you 3 times. If you try to stop me then you're gonna most likely get nailed into a wall and take the three hits anyway.[/quote] I played against a very aggressive Vayne solo top the other day as Nasus. You'd think that those Silver Bolts would deal more damage, but I just soaked it all up, or easily evaded her 3rd shot by stepping back. Early game she'd get herself hurt by minions trying to 3 proc hit me. I still outfarmed her, and in the laning phase killed her twice due to her being too aggressive.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=JunSupport] If you're so amazing, climb the ELO ladder. [/quote] I plan to.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=jhoijhoi] I played against a very aggressive Vayne solo top the other day as Nasus. You'd think that those Silver Bolts would deal more damage, but I just soaked it all up, or easily evaded her 3rd shot by stepping back. Early game she'd get herself hurt by minions trying to 3 proc hit me. I still outfarmed her, and in the laning phase killed her twice due to her being too aggressive. [/quote] Yeah you can't take too many hits from minions for free with Vayne. What server do you play on Jhoi, curious? ^^[/quote]

[quote=Beeswarm17]I didn't think that it would get to the point of a whole lot of bickering about skilling order, but I guess it's the nature of the game. From what I've seen in my time short time on the forums, Duff focuses mostly on the most damage. That's his core idea when choosing champs and skills. Would I be correct to assume that? With that being said, [[Silver Bolts]] might actually give you the most damage output, acting under the assumption of landing that third hit. I'm not taking individual player skill into account here, mind you. I'm assuming that you can manage the third hit of [[silver bolts]] the same as the stun shot from [[condemn]]. Is the comparison to high-ELO play actually valid to what Duff's talking about? High-ELO players may focus more on "utility", as in the ability to be more mobile or fire more shots of [[condemn]]. Maybe those players just found a niche with those abilities? Is there something other than straight damage on their minds? Maybe [[silver bolts]] actually does more damage, but with the support + carry metagame, it doesn't make much sense to level up [[silver bolts]] when it will just be negated, making utility more valuable? What about the farming benefits of [[silver bolts]] versus [[tumble]]? I know it may be a bit silly to ask, but it's a part of the game, too. It may be easier to farm with [[tumble]], or the ability to knock targets away to free up your zone may be more important. Vayne can use [[condemn]] to keep her zone clear to allow for better farming. It sounds situational to me, in a lot of different ways. Using Jhoi's example above, using [[condemn]] seems like a decent way of denying Nasus from farming his Q. More [[condemn]] shots means a weaker Nasus. I don't know, maybe this is all BS coming from me. Like I said, I've not been playing her very long, and my games haven't always gone so well. I just think that maybe her [[silver bolts]] will do more damage under consistent fire, but assuming different targets and playstyles, her other skills may make more of a difference in farming or survivability. But I really just want all the cool people on the forums to not fight. ._.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]^+Rep[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]When we're discussing ranged carries, and AP carries, damage is what you want. That's the whole reason you're building massive amounts of AP on the carry or AD on the carry. When a champion is "Fed" it's damage is high, and it tears through the enemy team. You might as well pick the champions and level the skills that synergize with dealing damage, since that's the whole reason you're putting the champion into the game and playing a certain role. In regards to the rest, doesn't smoothly play out. Dealing more damage in lane forces a support to spend more mana to bring their HP back up. Vayne has the kind of melt your face off damage to deal -too- much damage for a support to heal off. This causes your opponents to be unable to farm safely, and it allows you to have free farm. In my normals, by the way, every game has a team comp with support carry, jungler, etc, so the support argument healing off damage is irrelevant. Using supports as an example, I could say my Taric stunned you, which enabled me to hit you a full 3 extra times and land a kill. What we're talking about is the functionality of the skilling order, and in this instance heals aren't very relevant. Vayne and Taric can full to zero you if you make a mistake. In regards to utility, Vayne still has all 3 skills when leveling silver bolts. Vayne can still do everything any other skilling order can do. The only difference is, Vayne deals better, and more easily attainable damage when skilling W, and has longer CD's on her other skills. Farming with W, with a little bit of practice is very very easy. You won't often need to tumble to auto attack, but when you do, the skill is always ready to be used. Other things to note; When your damage comes from W, you can stand your ground and attack at melees, land shots while they come in and tumble back and keep attacking, push them away with condemn, and do it all over again. Your damage will be excellent, and if you leveled W early, not many melee's will be able to focus you after than kind of damage early on. If they keep coming, you have exhaust and they're just committing suicide. Melee's can't fight vayne in lane phase if ypu skill W. Yet when leveling condemn, unless you can nail them into a wall, in that situation you have to run away. And there's a bazillion other scenarios which are all the same idea. When condemn works, silver blots works just as well. When silver bolts works, condemn does not necessarily work as well. Condemn is the widely accepted and popular way to do it, it's just not the best way to do it. Leveling tumble is quite frankly awful in comparison to leveling W.[/quote]