Alright so Vayne...

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] ^ Nope.[/quote] No, Jun is right about most things in that comment.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Nope. That's why people in the USA suck at Vayne and don't realize how strong she is. I've heard the argument and everyone and their mom tells me I'm skilling her wrong. Yet, I carry the piss out of games with her. *Shrug.* The Chinese do it my way too. The same ones who stomped CLG's face off with Vayne.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] Nope. That's why people in the USA suck at Vayne and don't realize how strong she is. I've heard the argument and everyone and their mom tells me I'm skilling her wrong.[/quote] I don't really care enough about Vayne to try myself, so I can't really disagree here, but the way Jun puts it that still seems like the most logical way. [quote]*Shrug.*[/quote] Stop shrugging though..[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]In theory it's more damage. But a good player won't let you nail them into wall, first of all, unless you flash, and a good player can flash your flash to boot. Secondly, I'm an aggressive player who auto attacks a lot in lane, and I prefer to lane with Taric. I can get my three shots off rather often, without relying on your bad play to let me nail you into the wall. It's possible that the E style works best for the more passive laners who don't auto attack often, but for me W has always netted me the highest damage output. Anybody who's seen my Vayne will tell you it's balls deep, very aggressive, and I usually get fed and deal face melt damage earlier than they're used to seeing it happen. It's partly the champ, partly my choice of skilling, but leveling silver bolts last is awful. You need to level it second at the very latest, it's damage mid game is far too great to pas up. (I personally level condemn last, as it's the least reliable and least consistant source of damage.)[/quote]

[quote=Beeswarm17][quote=DuffTime] In theory it's more damage. But a good player won't let you nail them into wall, first of all, unless you flash, and a good player can flash your flash to boot. [/quote] I'm by no means a very good Vayne player, but isn't this the point of Tumble? "Oh, look, that guy got near a wall. Let me just slide over here..." That thought seems to be the driving tactic to utilizing condemn properly, even in team fights. I'm not saying your build is bad. I like the look of it. I'll give it a try the next time I play Vayne and see how it works for me. It's hyper-aggressive, and I like playing that way if I get the chance. I'm speaking mostly about the laning phase when I say this: Brush control is incredibly good. If every time you walk into a bush, Vayne condemns you into the wall, it'll start to hurt really bad. And if you just avoid the brush, you'd be giving Vayne some incredibly easy farm. Now, as a counter to my own point, you're much likely to get that high damage silver bolt shot off (maybe even two) if you stun them, and that's potentially more damaging if silver bolts has been leveled first, rather than condemn. I'm mostly throwing out these comments in the hopes of someone with some more vayne experience than me to give clarification on these points, since these actually reflect how I currently play her. I'm wondering if there's a better way, or if I'm just not good enough yet to use her right.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Right but anybody will know a good support is gonna cv the bush and vayne will instantly be there. You just sit in the middle of the lane vrs Vayne. Don't go near the walls or bushes. Is it better to let her get 10-20 more creeps in the lane phase, or is it better to try to control the bushes, and die 2-3 times in laning phase because she nailed you into a wall for 300 damage? I think it's a safe choice. Also, if you're gonna carry with Vayne, don't use the Offtank build I made. Lol. It's not a carry build by any means. It's just -enough- damage. It works in solo queue if you don't have a tank but it's not a competitive level build. Correrct, if you stun them into the wall you guarantee your 3rd shot to land (As long as your support is playing well and gives you vision of the bush one way or another.) Then as they run away you'll land a few more hits ideally. It just results in more damage at the end of the day, and less reliance on a skill with a long CD. This way you can also engage against melee's, land a few attacks, and use your E to push them back when they get near you. You'll deal good damage because your W hurts. So you're more versatile, you can deal better or as much damage at all times, and you don't need your opponent to make mistakes to be able to deal that damage.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]All enemies make mistakes. Even at top elo. So maxing Condemn still isn't a bad choice. I guess maxing Q could be an option tho.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]No, maxing Q is really awful for the lane phase. Zero damage. =_= You'll just have to run away from your opponents constantly. In my experience, maxing W is by far and away the best option. But never Q first. Q is only good when you have gear, which is why I max it second after W.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]DuffTime, that'sssss a very nice [i]opinion[/i] you have there. Would be a ssssshame if anything were to happen to it - Like the random spawn of a 'fact'. Oh **snap! -Fact spawning in 3... 2... 1...- [[Silver Bolts]] is always ALWAYS only good for the mid and late game when people actually have health-items to be cut down. Early game - Even a Cho'Gath (a champ with a health-steroid) has only moderate health that makes [[Tumble]] more effective.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]That's funny, I thought facts were supposed to be correct instead of complete bullshit nonsense. It's flat damage, and % damage. You're only considering the % damage. You skill it for the flat damage. The % damage is useful in teamfights against tanks, but in lane phase you will dominate because of the flat damage. So, while your attempt to make me look like an opinionated kid who speaks on that which he doesn't know or understand was a good attempt, it was also a waste of your time. You get more damage at any phase of the game by leveling W than you get by leveling any other skill.[/quote]