Alright so Vayne...

[quote=Beeswarm17]I can agree with that. Again, I'm not saying that you would get all of those hits in a real game. I was only saying that the potential damage of silver bolts was potentially higher. And you're right about the flat damage not being true damage. I misread the text on that one. However, armor will have a fairly small affect on it, since armor reduces damage on a percentage level, correct? I do see what you were getting at, as well. Working under the assumptions you're making, your numbers are fairly solid. I appreciate the clarification and your taking the time to explain your thoughts. Two other things I'd like to ask about in order to be completely clear on your reasoning and give me a more complete view on things. 1) How does the damage compare when walls aren't taken into account? Suppose the target stays away from walls forever and makes it impossible to hit that stun. Would silver bolts be more practical? 2) Would it not be more reasonable to assume that you could get more silver bolts procs than condemn wall stuns? ...I'm starting to think this is getting more into theory crafting, but I don't know anymore. >_>[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Over the course of a lane phase, you will land three consecutive shots on your enemies many times. It's incredibly easy to land 3 consecutive hits with Vayne. I don't see how anyone could think it's not easy to land 3 consecutive hits with Vayne. Auto attack once, auto attack twice, tumble, auto attack. Even if they run away, against the vast majority of targets, Vayne can easily land that combo. Or you'll play like a scared AFK farmer, and you won't harass at all, etc, in which case you might as well level whatever you the fk you want because you're not gonna be using it for anything but farming anyway. It is theory crafting, but it's theory crafting about something that can be proven. People act like I've never tried their methods. I don't know why people assume I would comment on things I'm unsure of. Silver Bolts is the better skilling order, if you play to harass and -win- the lane, instead of just AFK farming.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS][quote=Beeswarm17] I can agree with that. Again, I'm not saying that you would get all of those hits in a real game. I was only saying that the potential damage of silver bolts was potentially higher. And you're right about the flat damage not being true damage. I misread the text on that one. However, armor will have a fairly small affect on it, since armor reduces damage on a percentage level, correct? I do see what you were getting at, as well. Working under the assumptions you're making, your numbers are fairly solid. I appreciate the clarification and your taking the time to explain your thoughts. Two other things I'd like to ask about in order to be completely clear on your reasoning and give me a more complete view on things. 1) How does the damage compare when walls aren't taken into account? Suppose the target stays away from walls forever and makes it impossible to hit that stun. Would silver bolts be more practical? 2) Would it not be more reasonable to assume that you could get more silver bolts procs than condemn wall stuns? ...I'm starting to think this is getting more into theory crafting, but I don't know anymore. >_> [/quote] The initial hit with the numbers I suggested for Condem make the damage 235 (assuming true damage). The Silver Bolt proc (at max rank against a target with ~2k HP) would be 220. 15 damage difference, not a lot, but that's only if Condem doesn't stun someone into a wall. The target needs to have ~2k HP as well for the full Silver Bolt damage to hit 220. From my experience of playing Vayne it really depends on the lane. Early game if we were to run the numbers Silver Bolt procs would be dealing considerably less damage per proc, but the number of Tumble+AA(Silver Bolts active) combos you could get would be more often than Condem. My focus is simply burst the enemy in the small amount of time they're stunned. It behooves me to max Condem first. My lane is mostly farm, poke a little bit, but mostly farm. If an opprutunity presents itself I take it and get my stun off with considerable damage resulting in a kill or some free tower pushing time. @Duff: Maxing Silver Bolts over Condem is your style. I'd rather have level 5 condem when team fights roll around. You can win your lane and lose the game just the same as I can. But reducing the CD on Condem as well as getting a higher inital damage attack on a target suits me better. Vayne is a burst DPS in my book, a 1v1 Assassin. So I play her like one and max the thing that will take a huge bite out of my enemy in the shortest amount of time. The exact issue with this debate is the fact that it goes back to play style, we can't base what is better off play style/skill level. (Not entirely). I prefer one way, Duff you prefer another. Both ways can work, we just have differing personal strategies. I understand that you'll get more poke off against someone in a lane....I want to turn innocent poke into a tumble+condem+BOOM HEADSHOT got my kill. It's just differing playstyles. Simple enough. (But the damage numbers I suggested don't lie; at least if we are going for a kill and bursting someone down)[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]If a target has 800 HP, which is an entirely theoretical amount of HP to have, when I hit lvl 9 and get my final point, (Realistically they'll have more) then silver blots % of true dmg will be 64, and the flat dmg will be 60. With my Berz greaves, that's pretty much 124 damage on a 2-3 second cooldown (I will get my 3 attacks off in a 2-3 second window.) Condemn is a guaranteed 185 damage, with a potential for 2x that amount. If you leave Condemn at rank 1, you get 45+45, which is 90. You would get 370 maxing Condemn. If you can nail your target, you have more burst damage. If you can't nail your target, you'll deal almost exactly the same amount of damage. Over the next 12 seconds, I have the potential to land 3-4 of my silver bolts procs before Condemn comes back on CD. A potential of 372-496 bonus damage in the same window of time. It's possible I only get it off 1-2 times as well, but it's also possible you don't manage to nail your target. If I can land 2 procs of silver bolts, and you fail to nail your target, I've dealt more damage already. Other factors; Silver bolts damages all targets equally well, tanks, squishy targets, doesn't matter. Condemn does not. Silver bolts is a simple auto attack, auto attack, tumble combo. That's almost guaranteed to land if your target starts out facing you when factoring Vayne's passive. Condemn's wall pin is reliant on the failure of cautious play, made by your opponents. Silver bolts is not.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]However, yes, if you're going to do a passive lane farm, then you might as well max Condemn. Vayne's just not a very great passive farmer due to her lack of range. People will become aggressive and try to harass you if they catch you passively farming. I prefer to be the one taking control of the lane immediately and going right after my opponents. Trading kills is worth it on Vayne. You always do more with the gold than your opponent will.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]Not if the enemy is a [[kog'maw]]...[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]That gets down to a very technical theory craft, but you will still do as much or more than a Kog Maw if you play it right.[/quote]

[quote=Mowen]I would like to point out that you should definitely max [[silver bolts]] first if you are laning against Alistar. It makes it easy to kill him while he's ulting which is something he counts on for being aggressive. Witnessed this while playing with Duff the other day, and Alistar is someone you will see bot lane a LOT. Supported Duff another time while he was playing Vayne (I was Janna) and the Janna Vayne combo definitely makes Silver Bolts very effective. I am becoming more and more of a fan of maxing Silver Bolts first.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Another reason Vayne is strong because I feel like Cait is the only AD counter to her I've faced so far. I suspect Vayne does have tools to beat Cait in lane as well, but I'll have to look more into it. What seems to counter Vayne more than the carry is the choice of support. Alistar was annoying pre 6 but ironically around the same time he got his ulti, he also became much more manageable. That's not as much related to Alistar as it is toVayne just becoming sickeningly strong around level 7-9 when you max W first. Janna shield + silver bolts is quite simply a losing trade for any other carry support combo. Too much damage. I'd like to see how Taric/Cait feels against Janna/Vayne, however. Taric stun could prove to be fairly problematic. Maxing Silver Bolts makes anything easy to kill, however :P Too much deeps.[/quote]