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What do people think of my talon bad items...

Creator: RCIX
February 29, 2012 4:46pm
23 posts page 1 of 3 Forums » Build & Guide Discussion » What do people think of my talon bad items explanation?
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by RCIX » February 29, 2012 4:46pm | Report
In a chapter of my Talon guide, I go through several commonly built items and explain why I feel like they're poor choices. Do my reasons make sense? Should I back some of it up with more math? Anything else I'm missing?
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by DuffTime » March 1, 2012 12:12pm | Report
Infinity edge is a great item on Talon. So you're wrong on that one.

In fact the build leaves me feeling generally unimpressed.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Zell » March 1, 2012 12:37pm | Report
So no to Infinity Edge, Phantom Dancer, Trinity Force etc but yes to having a couple of The Bloodthirster, rushing Philosopher's Stone and getting a Shurelya's Reverie commonly picked up by supports and some junglers?

Just goes to show looks aren't everything. :-)
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by DuffTime » March 1, 2012 12:47pm | Report
TBH I build my Talon like so;

2-3 dorans, Berz greaves or Lucidity, BT, GA, I.E, BT, BT.

Nope, not trolling you either.

So like, I don't disagree with whoring out BT's, but saying no to I.E. is really dumb.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by RCIX » March 2, 2012 1:07pm | Report
DuffTime wrote:

Infinity edge is a great item on Talon. So you're wrong on that one.

In fact the build leaves me feeling generally unimpressed.

Why would you build an item where you're forking over >1k of the item's cost for a case talon shouldn't even be in 80% of the time? Crit has zero synergy with his spells (no, Noxian Diplomacy doesn't get any more benefit from a crit than a regular attack), and he is an assassin, not tanky DPS or AD carry.

And like with Trinity force. You're paying a bunch of money for:
* AS (he casts a lot of spells, not autoattacks)
* crit (no synergy with his spells)
* AP (he has literally no use for this)
* Mana (he's not THAT mana hungry)
* A bonus damage passive that doesn't scale as well as a 1k less cost item on him

In summary, it's dumb to build items on him that make him stick around to kill people when he has neither the range, skillset, tankiness, or innate damage on his kit to let him build tanky derps or AD carry.

I only spam BTs because, quite honestly, nothing else is cost-effective enough for him. If they brought over Entropy from Dominion (for example), I'd jump on that in a new york second :P

I also go through and list like a dozen different defensive items you could get; I just prefer Shurelya's because it offers sustain, some health, CDR, AND the movespeed active for chasing.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Lugignaf » March 2, 2012 1:15pm | Report
Infinity edge is the highest AD item in the game other than a fully stacked bloodthirster.

With an AA reset on his Q, the value of the crit chance really shines.
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by RCIX » March 2, 2012 1:22pm | Report
Lugignaf wrote:

Infinity edge is the highest AD item in the game other than a fully stacked bloodthirster.

With an AA reset on his Q, the value of the crit chance really shines.

But that's all he really has that "synergizes" with crit; for ~800 less, you get more AD to go with his fantastic AD scaling (total of roughly 4.5 IIRC), and lifesteal to help survive if you do for whatever reason have to stick around after a burst.

(And by that logic, a crit build on nasus also is really good :P)

Edit: To clarify, if one could reasonably depend on crits, that's one thing. But to get your crit chance above 50% (the absolute minimum I'd accept for a decent crit build), you are forced into itemizing for other stuff talon most definitely does not work well with (primarily AS, or possibly tanky DPS).
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by RCIX » March 2, 2012 3:48pm | Report
OK, Broke out the matchraft on this:

I'll start with comparing just IE to just BT, at level 11 with L3 Q, L5 W, and L2 R (damage amp on E is ignored for the purposes of mathcrafting)

Talon ratios: 0.3+1.2+1.2+1.8 = 4.5
Combo is e > autoattack > Q immediately > W > R R


IE burst no crits (80 dmg):
80*4.5= 360 + 784 = 1144 + 2x AA (50+34.1+80) = 1472.2

IE burst 1 crit (80 dmg)
80*4.5= 360 + 784 = 1144 + 1x AA (50+34.1+80) + 1x crit ((50+34.1+80)*2.5) = 1714.35

IE burst 2 crits (80 dmg):
80*4.5= 360 + 784 = 1144 + 2x crit ((50+34.1+80)*2.5) = 1964.5

Estimated chance of 1 crit is ~25% and 2 crits is ~15% (guesstimation based on how crit chance works)

BT longswords burst: (120 dmg):
120*4.5 = 540 + 784 = 1324 + 2x AA (50+34.1+120) = 1732.2

So, in a just IE case vs an equivalent amount in cost of raw AD, the raw AD gets you the same burst damage as the 1 crit IE case (which you only get 25% of the time). Average DPS is also higher, with the average DPS output from the IE being 1606.3 given the estimated percentage chances (drops lower if there's not as much chance for the 2 crit case).

Now, let's consider 2 fullish builds: 3x BT, last whisper, and BF sword (13k) VS infinity edge, 2 bloodthirsters, last whisper, and a pickaxe (ever so slightly more expensive but still ~13k).

3x bt/last whisper/bf sword is 385 damage, ie/2bt/pickaxe is 345 damage
Same combo, level 5 everything

IE burst no crits (345 damage):
345*4.5= 1552.5 + 1020 = 2572.5 + 2x AA (50+55.8+345) = 3474.1

IE burst 1 crit (345 damage):
345*4.5= 1552.5 + 1020 = 2572.5 + 1x AA (50+55.8+345) + 1x crit ((50+55.8+345) * 2.5) = 4150.3

IE burst 2 crits (345 damage):
345*4.5= 1552.5 + 1020 = 2572.5 + 2x crit ((50+55.8+345) * 2.5) = 4826.5

Estimated chance of 1 crit is ~25% and 2 crits is ~15% (guesstimation based on how crit chance works)

BT burst (385 damage):
385*4.5 = 1732.5 + 1020 = 2752.5 + 2x AA (50+55.8+385) = 3733.6

SO basically, you do get more damage output late game, but it hinges on getting crits still. Average DPS is also sliiightly higher (~100), but you end up sacrificing a chance for defensive itemization for it. You could itemize more heavily for crits (crc runes, Phantom Dancers, maybe a Youmuu's Ghostblade), but then the burst really drops off in favor of sustained damage. And do i really have to explain why an assassin shouldn't be itemizing for the AD carry role?
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Darcurse » March 2, 2012 4:42pm | Report
1) An "F" for this miserable self-promotion. (+ vote down. Why? Because I can)

2) And also because your build is like asking for a facepalm...
Triple Bloodthirster, Shurelia's and a not upgraded/later sold Brutalizer.

You dont even know that all of skills are effected by ArP.
You're talking about how I.E. isnt cuttin it on a non-autohitting champ, while you stack 3 BTs and their lifesteal.....

Not to mention your prior mastery sheet.... you know that you waste around 2/3 of your skill points that way? Even buying Zeke's on him makes way more sense..
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Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by RCIX » March 2, 2012 8:44pm | Report
Quoted:

1) An "F" for this miserable self-promotion. (+ vote down. Why? Because I can)

So asking for help on a specific section of my guide is self promotion? *checks subsection rules* Nope, isn't. Thanks for the pointless downvote though, shows off your true colors nicely.

Quoted:

2) And also because your build is like asking for a facepalm...
Triple Bloodthirster, Shurelia's and a not upgraded/later sold Brutalizer.

Did you bother looking at anything other than the cheat sheet? Aside from the fact that I put a Last Whisper in the recommended build, I have explanations as to why I don't bother with a brutalizer upgrade or infinity edge (great job ignoring the matchraft about IE in the post above you though). Arpen runes are also listed as alternate options.

Quoted:

You dont even know that all of skills are effected by ArP.
You're talking about how I.E. isnt cuttin it on a non-autohitting champ, while you stack 3 BTs and their lifesteal.....

now THIS deserves a facepalm. Said post above you curbstomps the idea of IE for talon, and I also explain in the guide that I only take so many bloodthirsters because there's nothing better to buy.

Quoted:

Not to mention your prior mastery sheet.... you know that you waste around 2/3 of your skill points that way? Even buying Zeke's on him makes way more sense..

So speccing into offense, where he'll only get use of about half the masteries in the first place is better? CDR makes sense to spec into for a caster, and given his options it's the best choice he has.
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