H4xDefender wrote:
Diana jungle was good, just needed time to come online. I think both are worse in 5.22 by a significant amount.
What changed? Lack of Trailblazer?
H4xDefender wrote:
Eh i'll throw in xin top next time I change the list. Hes one of the easiest champions in the game to gank top though, which is why he isnt very good. I dont normally like to take gankability TOO much into account when judging laners since a good jungler will protect vulnerable laners most times, but xin is an extreme case, where he literally cannot avoid ganks at all unless he never all ins in lane.
He can't avoid ganks, but he can sometimes turn them in his favor because his early damage is just ridiculous (example).
He's definitely better suited for solo queue where (ESPECIALLY during preseason) top laners easily snowball out of control.
GrandmasterD wrote:
What changed? Lack of Trailblazer?
she uses a lot of mana to gank and clear fast, and she doesn't clear as healthy as she used to anymore. mana junglers in general just kinda got shafted due to
1. removal of trailblazer
2. removal of mana pots
3. removal of mana restore on lasthitting big camps
the new jungle items just aren't kind to mana junglers. you sacrifice your mana sustain for hp sustain or vice versa, and its just a mess.
What do you think about Panth and Noc? I've always liked them to a varying degree, especially Panth, and wondered if they're worth playing. Shouldn't Panth have gained something from the Warrior change? Also, Devourer on Noc or would Warrior be an option?
Thanks to The_Nameless_Bard for the sig!
The warrior change isn't really a buff, depends on the champ but afaik it's a nerf. Lost the armour penetration and costs more.
Thanks to FatelBlade, JEFFY40HANDS, Nyoike, TheNamelessBard, GrandmasterD, aviseras and koksei for the awesome signatures
Warrior definitely was nerfed. Cost going up always sucks, and flat pen was really really good. Losing 10 flat pen for 15 ad isn't worth it for 90% of junglers.
I was basically the last guy still playing panth jungle seriously in high elo who wasn't a 1 trick, and he just feels bad now. Loss of trailblazer and other mana restoring sources really destroyed all he had left. I don't think I'll be playing him at all anymore unless I can get blue buffs.
As for nocturne, I've been playing him a bit more. I still hate his pre 6 with a passion, but he feels pretty good due to auto attack centric junglers just being better in general. I'd say he definitely got better in the new jungle solely based off of the lifesteal you get off of finishing jungle item. He isn't as mana dependent as a lot of other junglers are as well, so that helps.
For the warrior vs devourer debate, I'm leaning towards warrior. If you get behind, devourer feels like a complete goldsink unless it is sated, and it usually needs a damage item to back it up or it is lackluster, even sated. If you get really fed early, you can probably get away with devourer into bork, but I think I prefer warrior into tank, or a youmuus. Bork is really expensive, (although youmuus isnt cheap either) and devourer components also suck horribly. I'll take warhammer over a recurve bow anyday, and finished warrior >>> devourer until it is sated. (maybe even after honestly, unless you factor another damage item into the equation)
On top of all of that, warrior just bursts harder. I prefer the instant upfront damage over the dueling power and damage longevity that devourer gives. Psiguard (if he sees this) can probably also shed some more light on this. He definitely plays more nocturne than I do. I've always been interested in nocturne, but never felt he was good enough to dedicate serious time to.
I was basically the last guy still playing panth jungle seriously in high elo who wasn't a 1 trick, and he just feels bad now. Loss of trailblazer and other mana restoring sources really destroyed all he had left. I don't think I'll be playing him at all anymore unless I can get blue buffs.
As for nocturne, I've been playing him a bit more. I still hate his pre 6 with a passion, but he feels pretty good due to auto attack centric junglers just being better in general. I'd say he definitely got better in the new jungle solely based off of the lifesteal you get off of finishing jungle item. He isn't as mana dependent as a lot of other junglers are as well, so that helps.
For the warrior vs devourer debate, I'm leaning towards warrior. If you get behind, devourer feels like a complete goldsink unless it is sated, and it usually needs a damage item to back it up or it is lackluster, even sated. If you get really fed early, you can probably get away with devourer into bork, but I think I prefer warrior into tank, or a youmuus. Bork is really expensive, (although youmuus isnt cheap either) and devourer components also suck horribly. I'll take warhammer over a recurve bow anyday, and finished warrior >>> devourer until it is sated. (maybe even after honestly, unless you factor another damage item into the equation)
On top of all of that, warrior just bursts harder. I prefer the instant upfront damage over the dueling power and damage longevity that devourer gives. Psiguard (if he sees this) can probably also shed some more light on this. He definitely plays more nocturne than I do. I've always been interested in nocturne, but never felt he was good enough to dedicate serious time to.
Pantheon definitely took a punch to the face, though I still think he is decent enough if he has access to Blue Buffs, perhaps if your mid laner is energy based? As far as low-elo is concerned, he is still pretty good and can definitely carry games if played right.
Also, regarding the Mundo discussion, if he ever gets ahead of you in levels, you can bid your game farewell until you catch up, he can tank so much damage, moreover with the new mastery. His cleaver has a diabetic slow on it and if your team can follow up on it, it is really hard to get away. IMO, he doesn't even need an escape spell, Exhaust is a way better pick, because dying as Mundo is next to impossible (unless, of course, you get focused by everyone, or your build sucks). That said, make sure to try building Titanic Hydra if you ever get ahead of the enemy, the damage output for a tank is absolutely ridiculous.
Also, regarding the Mundo discussion, if he ever gets ahead of you in levels, you can bid your game farewell until you catch up, he can tank so much damage, moreover with the new mastery. His cleaver has a diabetic slow on it and if your team can follow up on it, it is really hard to get away. IMO, he doesn't even need an escape spell, Exhaust is a way better pick, because dying as Mundo is next to impossible (unless, of course, you get focused by everyone, or your build sucks). That said, make sure to try building Titanic Hydra if you ever get ahead of the enemy, the damage output for a tank is absolutely ridiculous.
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I played a game as Rammus jungle, the clearing camps and early game was terrible. The only thing it has going for it is Bond of Stone, which means you tank damage for your team even better, but that feels like a moot point compared to Shyvana etc who tank damage and deal damage to entire teams with the same setup.
It's not even exclusive to Rammus jungle, if top or support Rammus was a thing you could get the same or better results.
It's not even exclusive to Rammus jungle, if top or support Rammus was a thing you could get the same or better results.
Basically MOBAFire.
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Diana jungle was good, just needed time to come online. I think both are worse in 5.22 by a significant amount.