Keep in mind that also, you might be looking too late into the game. If you're looking at the game and it's 34-10, there's probably a ton of things that you could've done to stop your opponents from cascading that hard earlier.
If I helped you out, be sure to throw me a +Rep!
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My Soraka Guide | My Review Service
Thanks a lot for the sig, jhoi! :)
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My Soraka Guide | My Review Service
Thanks a lot for the sig, jhoi! :)
1) Thanks for all the responses. I enjoy the dialogue.
Firstly, this isn't really an analogy, since I am not using separate instances, but rather one EXAMPLE of the point that is being made.
Again, I don't think its useful to say a diamond can easily climb out of silver. Because the skill differential is so great it doesn't disprove ELO HELL. (Not that I am saying it exists, at least as generally defined)
Half the people in my games are gold, and tons of them are terrible. I had a Gold get 75 CS in a 45 min game as mid and had like 7 wards placed all game.
If gold level players could "easily" carry themselves out of silver, that would instantly disprove ELO HELL, but they don't.
It is absolutely possible, but again for some golds -- its going to be hellish. Because they probably dont have the skill to carry an 0-15 bottom to victory. So they have to absorb lots of losses even though they may be playing 'gold level well', thats not enough to carry people 50-100 ELO behind you.
Right, but it still can be a brutal grind. I have a 65% win rate when I jungle, but some of the losses are soul crushing. And many games are mind boggling where you see a person die to the exact same gank 10 times in a row and still never buy a ward, or ADC's with bronze 5 level cs. (Again, to me that is ELO HELL -- being teamed up with people who don't understand basic fundamentals like how to last hit, or how to freeze a lane, or how to ward to prevent ganks, or to punish counter junglers, etc.)
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At this point your kind of agreeing that ELO hell exists in that your teammates are a huge part of if you are go up the ladder or not. (If you can get lucky and be carried up, then it reasons you could get unlucky and be artifically held down)
I agree with this, because I have personally been able to identify what I was doing wrong and learn to correct it. It took me a rear to realize that CS was way more important than kills and that a high KDA on an assassin wasn't helping me win games.
Where I think we disagree is that I'm still getting teamed up consistently with people who clearly believe wrong things. Thats the 'hellish' part of this game. Getting 4 kills on enemy team then watching your entire squad chase the 5th one down while ignoring objectives, getting baited, not warding, not csing, etc etc.
sirell wrote:
Firstly, this isn't really an analogy, since I am not using separate instances, but rather one EXAMPLE of the point that is being made.
Again, I don't think its useful to say a diamond can easily climb out of silver. Because the skill differential is so great it doesn't disprove ELO HELL. (Not that I am saying it exists, at least as generally defined)
Half the people in my games are gold, and tons of them are terrible. I had a Gold get 75 CS in a 45 min game as mid and had like 7 wards placed all game.
If gold level players could "easily" carry themselves out of silver, that would instantly disprove ELO HELL, but they don't.
Quoted:
And according to this logic, a Gold player should be able to get back to Gold (whether they do or not is another question, but at the very least it's POSSIBLE).
It is absolutely possible, but again for some golds -- its going to be hellish. Because they probably dont have the skill to carry an 0-15 bottom to victory. So they have to absorb lots of losses even though they may be playing 'gold level well', thats not enough to carry people 50-100 ELO behind you.
Quoted:
It's true at closer divisions that there is less discernible difference, like Gold IV to Silver II is roughly the same level with practically negligible difference in skill. But Gold V carrying a Silver IV game? Well, depending on the player, but he should really be able to, because that is quite a distance in Elo. He might lose a few games, but he should win a large majority of his games.
Right, but it still can be a brutal grind. I have a 65% win rate when I jungle, but some of the losses are soul crushing. And many games are mind boggling where you see a person die to the exact same gank 10 times in a row and still never buy a ward, or ADC's with bronze 5 level cs. (Again, to me that is ELO HELL -- being teamed up with people who don't understand basic fundamentals like how to last hit, or how to freeze a lane, or how to ward to prevent ganks, or to punish counter junglers, etc.)
Quoted:
If he doesn't, then quite frankly, he's not Gold IV worthy and he lucked out getting it in the first place
At this point your kind of agreeing that ELO hell exists in that your teammates are a huge part of if you are go up the ladder or not. (If you can get lucky and be carried up, then it reasons you could get unlucky and be artifically held down)
Quoted:
Honestly though, if you just suck at the game, the most major thing stopping you getting better at the game is yourself. It's really not rocket science.
I agree with this, because I have personally been able to identify what I was doing wrong and learn to correct it. It took me a rear to realize that CS was way more important than kills and that a high KDA on an assassin wasn't helping me win games.
Where I think we disagree is that I'm still getting teamed up consistently with people who clearly believe wrong things. Thats the 'hellish' part of this game. Getting 4 kills on enemy team then watching your entire squad chase the 5th one down while ignoring objectives, getting baited, not warding, not csing, etc etc.
I used to care about KDA, now I care about CS and Objectives.
Note on KDA and low ELO. (Cause I'm low ELO)
KDA is important to low ELO because it actually wins games... hear me out.
I find that most of the losses are when the team gives up. The majority of my games last less than 25 minutes because once a team falls behind in KDA it is a constant surrender vote spam after 20 mins. They claim that the game is lost we might as well give up and move onto a game we can win and not waste our time!!!
I have been in games where we gave up first blood and people on my team start "gg, game over. Let's surrender at 20 mins and not drag out the loss."
I drives me nuts when we have mostly late game champs and the other team has early game poke champs. I was in a game the other night where we were 6-12 in kills and lost the three outer turrets to some early game champs and at 21 minutes my team surrendered. Low ELO has trouble even thinking about how to come back. We were wining CS but still they threw in the towel. Ironically, when I have a team that sticks it out, more often than not we win the game. Typically we still have 1 person spamming surrender the whole time. I love winning the come from behind just to show people it can be done.
As some of you have said not understanding the game objectives loses many games for low ELO. Giving up at 20 mins because you don't know how to come back is one sign of that lack of understanding.
20 min surrender in most instances is a pet peeve of mine!
KDA is important to low ELO because it actually wins games... hear me out.
I find that most of the losses are when the team gives up. The majority of my games last less than 25 minutes because once a team falls behind in KDA it is a constant surrender vote spam after 20 mins. They claim that the game is lost we might as well give up and move onto a game we can win and not waste our time!!!
I have been in games where we gave up first blood and people on my team start "gg, game over. Let's surrender at 20 mins and not drag out the loss."
I drives me nuts when we have mostly late game champs and the other team has early game poke champs. I was in a game the other night where we were 6-12 in kills and lost the three outer turrets to some early game champs and at 21 minutes my team surrendered. Low ELO has trouble even thinking about how to come back. We were wining CS but still they threw in the towel. Ironically, when I have a team that sticks it out, more often than not we win the game. Typically we still have 1 person spamming surrender the whole time. I love winning the come from behind just to show people it can be done.
As some of you have said not understanding the game objectives loses many games for low ELO. Giving up at 20 mins because you don't know how to come back is one sign of that lack of understanding.
20 min surrender in most instances is a pet peeve of mine!
lanilwow wrote:
Note on KDA and low ELO. (Cause I'm low ELO)
KDA is important to low ELO because it actually wins games... hear me out.
KDA is important to low ELO because it actually wins games... hear me out.
Or if I were to pare that down - KDA is important to moral as a sign you are winning when you don't have enough game knowledge to know that you are making progress in other ways?
I had a game like that recently. Totally out of site fed Kat. Team is ready to throw in towel. I was playing top lane Sion and hadn't been part of the debacle in mid and bot lane aside from a TP gank that netted us a kill and tower. Surrender vote. I opted not to surrender. Those that wanted to surrender were like "But why?" I simply said "stun Kat". And from then on our Sona made it her mission to ult kat every time she jumped in and I also reserved my ult for Kat and though we still ended up losing the game in the end, it was a heck of lot closer than the other team expected.
Ixtellor wrote:
1) Thanks for all the responses. I enjoy the dialogue.
Where I think we disagree is that I'm still getting teamed up consistently with people who clearly believe wrong things. Thats the 'hellish' part of this game. Getting 4 kills on enemy team then watching your entire squad chase the 5th one down while ignoring objectives, getting baited, not warding, not csing, etc etc.
Where I think we disagree is that I'm still getting teamed up consistently with people who clearly believe wrong things. Thats the 'hellish' part of this game. Getting 4 kills on enemy team then watching your entire squad chase the 5th one down while ignoring objectives, getting baited, not warding, not csing, etc etc.
This is a struggly part of the game for me too. I had a couple of games two nights ago that I had to ask myself how the peeps go into Silver. One of the games we were crushing the enemies in kills but could not be bothered to take objectives.
You know whose fault that was? Mine. Because I was not able to communicate with the team in a way that got them focused on the right tasks at the right time. Keep in mind that these people were all mechanically competent with their champions.
Try a different tactic than watching in despair as your team chases yet another low health champion around and around in their jungle while you have minion waves sitting at their towers.
"Team break off chase. Mid tower is open."
Or single them out by Champion or Summoner name.
"Nasus back off. Let's get mid tower."
Because if one of the chasers stops the others are less likely to keep going.
It isn't a panacea, but clear and direct instructions that aren't derogatory have the best chance of getting your team on track.
It helps to carry by numbers. But it isn't always necessary. When things are clicking I can get my team to the right places just by pinging the next objective even if I am not the leader in kills.
So yeah, on top of game knowledge and mechanical skill, you also need to be a good communicator if you want to have the best shot of carrying in as many games as possible.
Ixtellor wrote:
Again, I don't think its useful to say a diamond can easily climb out of silver. Because the skill differential is so great it doesn't disprove ELO HELL. (Not that I am saying it exists, at least as generally defined)
But I'm saying that basically EVERYONE can actually get that skill level if they just learn the game. And what these Diamonds are proving is that Elo Hell is just another way of saying 'I'm not good enough to carry myself out of the players around me'. If Diamonds can do it, then just learn to play like a Diamond. This 'Elo Hell' where your teammates are so bad you can't carry yourself out' is basically an illusion.
Ixtellor wrote:
Half the people in my games are gold, and tons of them are terrible. I had a Gold get 75 CS in a 45 min game as mid and had like 7 wards placed all game.
If gold level players could "easily" carry themselves out of silver, that would instantly disprove ELO HELL, but they don't.
If gold level players could "easily" carry themselves out of silver, that would instantly disprove ELO HELL, but they don't.
The truth of the matter is that Gold tier isn't actually high tier anyway. For all intents and purposes, Gold is basically Silver which is basically Bronze. Even Plat isn't really that high in many respects. But it all boils down to 'are you THAT MUCH better than the players around you'. The answer, most of the time, is no. I'm a one-trick pony and I like to spam literally 2-3 champions in support and that's it. If you ask me to play outside my position, I'm trash and get beat by silvers occasionally. You get good teams and bad teams, but the real question is what you can do when you're given bad teams. If Diamonds can do it, why can't you? Answer: you're not good enough. Why can't Golds do it either? Because they're not good enough either.
It's not the teams that are stopping you from getting out of 'Elo Hell'.
Ixtellor wrote:
It is absolutely possible, but again for some golds -- its going to be hellish. Because they probably dont have the skill to carry an 0-15 bottom to victory. So they have to absorb lots of losses even though they may be playing 'gold level well', thats not enough to carry people 50-100 ELO behind you.
Same point as above. But again, if they truly are a fraction better than most people around them, then they should gradually rise. And that's the point of only being 50-100 Elo ahead, and that's precisely the point of MMR. If you constantly trash those in your tier, you get more MMR gains and rank faster. If you don't, it's a grind. It has practically nothing to do with the teams around you.
Ixtellor wrote:
Right, but it still can be a brutal grind. I have a 65% win rate when I jungle, but some of the losses are soul crushing. And many games are mind boggling where you see a person die to the exact same gank 10 times in a row and still never buy a ward, or ADC's with bronze 5 level cs. (Again, to me that is ELO HELL -- being teamed up with people who don't understand basic fundamentals like how to last hit, or how to freeze a lane, or how to ward to prevent ganks, or to punish counter junglers, etc.)
You're so focused on what other people are doing wrong that it doesn't seem like you're doing anything to cover for their mistakes, either. You're not killing their jungler or you're not making effective ganks or taking objectives or just being in the right place at the right time. Having said that, with a 65% winrate, that's not actually quite convincing enough to get you out of your tier that quickly (I took the liberty of looking at your stats) when that's over 235 games played. It means I might be able to grant you Gold tier at best, but that's probably going to be the peak of your ability right now and if you go any further, you'll just consistently beaten. That's not your teammates' fault by any means. You can only blame yourself for not being (say) Platinum standard.
It's the exact same thing with me last Season when I got to Plat. By the time I got to Plat, it had taken me about 200+ games. And that's how I know I'm not that much better than Gold, and it definitely showed because I initially dropped from Gold I to Gold III before getting to Platinum. But I got out of Silver quickly and haven't dropped back in since, because Silver's literally too easy, even with bad teams. But Plat's my limit at the moment and it shows because I only had like a 60% winrate at best in Plat.
Ixtellor wrote:
At this point your kind of agreeing that ELO hell exists in that your teammates are a huge part of if you are go up the ladder or not. (If you can get lucky and be carried up, then it reasons you could get unlucky and be artifically held down)
Not at all. You can fluke a fair amount of games, it's true, but the more games you play in ranked, the more accurate it will reflect your true Elo. The Gold IV is a fluke and if that player continues to play, it will reflect and he will gradually drop in ranking. If you deserve a higher ranking, the more games you play, the more it will show, even if it will be a brutal grind. Just how I eventually got to Plat V and even IV, even though it took me like 316 games. I can carry Bronze and Silver games, but then I start losing traction in Gold, where the skill difference isn't so big.
Ixtellor wrote:
I agree with this, because I have personally been able to identify what I was doing wrong and learn to correct it. It took me a rear to realize that CS was way more important than kills and that a high KDA on an assassin wasn't helping me win games.
Probably the most specifically important thing people need to learn are the 'win conditions' of their champions - what it is that will make that champion shine the most and carry games. Most people don't even think to research this and so just play the game without knowing how to win in the first place.
Ixtellor wrote:
Where I think we disagree is that I'm still getting teamed up consistently with people who clearly believe wrong things. Thats the 'hellish' part of this game. Getting 4 kills on enemy team then watching your entire squad chase the 5th one down while ignoring objectives, getting baited, not warding, not csing, etc etc.
Again, worrying about them won't do anything. A Diamond/Master friend of mine can win games in Bronze-Gold the same way every game. He picks
Riven, goes top and just charges down all the outer turrets and maybe base ones too. All the focus shifts to him. Jungler has to come to his lane, but because he's fed on the laner, the jungler dies too, so that's even less pressure. Mid and bot can be losing hard, but it doesn't matter, because they're not stomping their lane so hard at the same speed as he is. If he roams, then he kills all other lanes, because he's more fed on kills with higher CS. And he was Silver the previous season, struggling to get out of Bronze.The point I'm trying to illustrate is that it doesn't matter whether the teams you get are bad or not, it's rather that YOU'RE not that much better. It's like whenever I see a Silver talk down to a Bronze "omg, can't win with this Bronze, no wonder you're still bronze", it's the most ironic thing in the world to me, because Silver and Bronze are basically the same.
Most people just don't know how to effectively improve and end up making the same mistakes and falling into the same bad habits before finally fixing it. If my friend can jump from struggling with Silver in one season to Diamond/Master in another and I can jump from Silver in one season to Platinum in the next, it's not because I got lucky with my teammates, it's because I improved to carry that much better. Honestly, there are games I remember even now that my team just makes it so much harder for me to win, but I still win. And that's the kind of thing you should be aiming for.
UnstoppableBacon wrote:
I've found that having a Duo partner will do leaps and bounds for your ELO. THis way you can count on at least one teammate to back you up and to do their part. Honestly a lot of the lower ELO games are won by 2 players doing well on a team.
It is more fun to play with a friend that can help you set up plays, but it doesn't actually increase the odds of winning a match.
Duo vs Solo Win Rates
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If they're leading 34-10 there's probably a significant reason why they are still able to kill you despite your objective control. And that significant reason is actually the REAL reason why you think you're getting stomped. Because the later the game goes, the more critical dying is. If they're able to beat you every teamfight, then there's usually something fundamentally wrong with your team comp or your mechanics or map awareness. Objectives are the key to winning the game, but if you're unable to capitalize on the objectives, then they're absolutely meaningless. For example, if you have all tier 2 towers, that's 3750-4650 global gold (750-1650 possible gold per person), but if you itemize poorly (which is often the case in low Elo), then the objective becomes meaningless. Getting the 3rd dragon but not knowing how to kite in a teamfight makes it pointless or using it to outmaneuver the enemy team. Getting vision on the enemy team, but not capitalizing and making catches. Etc, etc. So the core of the problem simply comes back to low Elo players not understanding the importance and the role of objectives.
If they're 34-10, they're probably ahead of you in gold and levels as well, because being dead makes you miss out on exp/CS, so it counter-balances a lot of the advantages mentioned before, if not all. It gets to a point where getting enough kills will equate to benefits gained from objective control.
Also, in some cases, getting kills is a form of objective (snowball champions, stacking champions, scaling champions, suppressing enemy champions, etc).