ELO HELL EXISTS, THESE ARE THE REASONS WHY

[quote=Vynertje][quote=VexRoth][quote=UnstoppableBacon]I've found that having a Duo partner will do leaps and bounds for your ELO. THis way you can count on at least one teammate to back you up and to do their part. Honestly a lot of the lower ELO games are won by 2 players doing well on a team.[/quote] It is more fun to play with a friend that can help you set up plays, but it doesn't actually increase the odds of winning a match. [url=https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/201752954-Matchmaking-Guide#q4]Duo vs Solo Win Rates[/url][/quote] I'll argue against this by saying it DOES if you play duo roles that require synergy (and you have the synergy, through communication etc) like support+adc and mid/jungle. On the other hand it's a bad thing to duo if you don't use skype/ts or if you play something like adc+mid.[/quote]

[quote=sirell]You also really need good synergy with your partner as a whole. I only have 2-3 good duoqueue partners and the rest I just don't play well with (like FalseoGod). It can actually be even more damaging if you lose as a pair, because you begin to think whether or not you really want to actually duo with each other. And communication is your best chance; you find things out faster.[/quote]

[quote=XeresAce]^pro tip: if you duoq with false play something that can abuse nautlius's kit. Velkoz and Kata seem to do wonders 8)[/quote]

[quote=sirell]The two of us are just never on the same page. Different breeds of Chocobo, you see.[/quote]

[quote=Ixtellor][quote=sirell] But I'm saying that basically EVERYONE can actually get that skill level if they just learn the game. And what these Diamonds are proving is that Elo Hell is just another way of saying 'I'm not good enough to carry myself out of the players around me'. If Diamonds can do it, then just learn to play like a Diamond. This 'Elo Hell' where your teammates are so bad you can't carry yourself out' is basically an illusion. [/quote] If it was as simple as "just learn to play like a diamond" then everyone would do it. Animation canceling, Being a riven who spams Q but also gets in an AA between every single hit of the Q key are not things most of the public can do. Also, its not like I and tons of others dont watch videos and try to get better -- we do. The fact is we aren't Diamond. Thats ok -- I dont need to be Diamond. I am a professional and have limited time to play the game or practice. By your logic, everyone should just learn the game and be Faker. Or everyone should have been Master level in Starcraft. [quote]You get good teams and bad teams, but the real question is what you can do when you're given bad teams. If Diamonds can do it, why can't you? Answer: you're not good enough. Why can't Golds do it either? Because they're not good enough either.[/quote] Once again you revert to the "professional 1% can carry teams, therefore everyone should be able to carry teams". I already stated what you just repeated several times -- I can't carry a bad team. I can beat my enemy jungler or mid or top and I can win my lane and out farm my opponant --- IE I will never be the weak link on my team --- but I still can't carry a bad team. (On volibear or Udyr I can occasionally a bad team if it doesn't get out of control.) My only desire is to not be teamed up with people who don't understand basics like "CS and warding is important". [quote]It's not the teams that are stopping you from getting out of 'Elo Hell'.[/quote] Again, my defintion is being matched with people who haven't even figured out that 100 CS as mid in a 40 min game is devestatingly bad. [quote]Same point as above. But again, if they truly are a fraction better than most people around them, then they should gradually rise. And that's the point of only being 50-100 Elo ahead, and that's precisely the point of MMR. If you constantly trash those in your tier, you get more MMR gains and rank faster. If you don't, it's a grind. It has practically nothing to do with the teams around you.[/quote] 1) That is exactly what I said hell is --- the slow grind of working your way out. I got placed in Bronze 5 this season, and just failed my silver 1 promo --- I am moving up slowly. But the climb is 'hellish'. 2) I don't disagree with anything you said in this portion. [quote]Having said that, with a 65% winrate, that's not actually quite convincing enough to get you out of your tier that quickly (I took the liberty of looking at your stats) when that's over 235 games played. It means [u][i]I might be able to grant you Gold tier at best[/i][/u][/quote], Gold tier is my goal. Again, I have a job and family and I feel like I can consistently play better or as good as the golds I get matched with. Its the 100 CS 40 min ADC's I want to get away from. OR tops that let Nasus farm under his tower the whole game while yelling at the jungler to "tower dive him!!" I just want to be the fuck away from those people. [quote=Ixtellor] At this point your kind of agreeing that ELO hell exists in that your teammates are a huge part of if you are go up the ladder or not. (If you can get lucky and be carried up, then it reasons you could get unlucky and be artifically held down)[/quote] [quote]A Diamond/Master friend of mine can win games in Bronze-Gold the same way every game. He picks [[Riven]], goes top and just charges down all the outer turrets and maybe base ones too. All the focus shifts to him. Jungler has to come to his lane, but because he's fed on the laner, the jungler dies too, so that's even less pressure. Mid and bot can be losing hard, but it doesn't matter, because they're not stomping their lane so hard at the same speed as he is. If he roams, then he kills all other lanes, because he's more fed on kills with higher CS. And he was Silver the previous season, struggling to get out of Bronze.[/quote] 1) So it only took him a short time to get to his current rank (Diamond/Master) --- probably like a 7 foot kid who needs a season to get good at Basketball, but then dominates the game once he learns a few moves. But your talking about a statistical anomoly that doesn't prove anything. In stats we call those outliars. [quote]It's like whenever I see a Silver talk down to a Bronze "omg, can't win with this Bronze, no wonder you're still bronze", it's the most ironic thing in the world to me, because Silver and Bronze are basically the same.[/quote] Bronze is a stupid rank because probably have the people in it are on their 2nd or 3rd accounts. So the really bad players who belong there are frequently playing against higher ranked players who don't really belong in there. (Many players intentionally lose games because they dont want to rank up --- they like going 30-0 on new players rather play at their own skill level --- HENCE ruining that whole rank) [quote]If my friend can jump from struggling with Silver in one season to Diamond/Master in another and I can jump from Silver in one season to Platinum in the next, it's not because I got lucky with my teammates, it's because I improved to carry that much better.[/quote] This is anecdotal evidence. It's not proving your point. Yes some guys play the lottery and win --- it doesn't mean lottery playing is a viable roadmap to wealth. Perhaps your a naturally gifted gamer, or maybe you came over from DOTA and just needed to learn the champs, etc. [quote]I'll argue against this by saying it DOES if you play duo roles that require synergy (and you have the synergy, through communication etc) like support+adc and mid/jungle. On the other hand it's a bad thing to duo if you don't use skype/ts or if you play something like adc+mid.[/quote] 1) In silver league --- its very advantageous to play in different lanes. If you can win 2 of 3 lanes, your will probably win the game. So I totally disagree. 2) I have an 80%+ win rate when I duo. My problem is that all my duo partners made gold or plat and don't want to duo anymore. Or I play so infrequently that I can't get a consistent partner. I recently found a gold player, who got placed in silver and we are currently 25 and 3. With 2 of the losses coming when we were the 2 last picks. In summary, I want to make gold, I feel like I can compete in Gold, but I will earn a lot of losses because I can't carry an 0-15 bottom to victory, especially once they have decided we 'cant win' and they throw in the towel.[/quote]

[quote=sirell][quote=Ixtellor] If it was as simple as "just learn to play like a diamond" then everyone would do it. Animation canceling, Being a riven who spams Q but also gets in an AA between every single hit of the Q key are not things most of the public can do. Also, its not like I and tons of others dont watch videos and try to get better -- we do. The fact is we aren't Diamond. Thats ok -- I dont need to be Diamond. I am a professional and have limited time to play the game or practice. By your logic, everyone should just learn the game and be Faker. Or everyone should have been Master level in Starcraft. [/quote] I never said learning to play like a Diamond was 'simple', but yes, that's exactly the point. There's nothing wrong with the logic that everyone should just learn the game and be better. In fact, thinking that this is in some way false is PRECISELY what holds people back. You're losing the game? Then get better! That's basically the solution in a nutshell. It's fine if you don't think you need to be Diamond; a lot of people just play this game for fun and I have nothing against that. But as soon as you start playing it competitively in ranked; you start complaining about 'Elo Hell' and/or your teammates in Gold and below, and you're taking the game relatively seriously, then the solution to 'get out of Elo Hell' is completely straightforward - you just have to get better at the game. And honestly, I've met a lot of people who say that they want to improve, but when it comes to executing it, they don't actually know how. There's effective learning and ineffective learning. A lot of people think they're progressing well when they're actually cultivating a lot of bad habits too. That's why even Diamond players get coaching, let alone those below Gold. [quote=Ixtellor] Once again you revert to the "professional 1% can carry teams, therefore everyone should be able to carry teams". I already stated what you just repeated several times -- I can't carry a bad team. I can beat my enemy jungler or mid or top and I can win my lane and out farm my opponant --- IE I will never be the weak link on my team --- but I still can't carry a bad team. (On volibear or Udyr I can occasionally a bad team if it doesn't get out of control.) My only desire is to not be teamed up with people who don't understand basics like "CS and warding is important".[/quote] Your desire is basically to ask for a relatively ideal team, which is ridiculous in and of itself and a pretty spoilt attitude. It's what EVERYONE wants, but even at Plat (and I hear Diamond) you get people CS-ing improperly. And I know you can't carry a bad team, but that's precisely what you need to work on. If Diamonds can do it, there's [b][u]NO[/b][/u] reason why you can't learn to either. Like, watching streams and tutorials only get you so far. There are mistakes that will be specific only to you that even you don't know about even if someone mentions it on stream. If you're only Silver (and maybe Gold at best) then there are clearly fundamental things that you are lacking to carry bad teams. [quote=Ixtellor] Again, my defintion is being matched with people who haven't even figured out that 100 CS as mid in a 40 min game is devestatingly bad.[/quote] Forget Diamonds for a moment. If >>>I<<< can do it after being Bronze and Silver for 2-3 years, there is no excuse for anyone else to be stuck in it either. There is NO 'Elo Hell'. [quote=Ixtellor] 1) That is exactly what I said hell is --- the slow grind of working your way out. I got placed in Bronze 5 this season, and just failed my silver 1 promo --- I am moving up slowly. But the climb is 'hellish'. 2) I don't disagree with anything you said in this portion. [/quote] Well, why do you think of it as 'hell'? It's just a natural climb if you think about it. Only better players go about it in leaps and bounds. That's exactly the logic of MMR. I was convinced that you only thought of Elo Hell as 'a place where you can't carry out because of poor teams'. My point is more specifically that you shouldn't really be blaming your team (even if they are bad). [quote=Ixtellor] Gold tier is my goal. Again, I have a job and family and I feel like I can consistently play better or as good as the golds I get matched with. Its the 100 CS 40 min ADC's I want to get away from. OR tops that let Nasus farm under his tower the whole game while yelling at the jungler to "tower dive him!!" I just want to be the fuck away from those people.[/quote] Well, there's honestly no rush. The only time I didn't enjoy playing ranked was when I went on a 9-game losing streak and dropped from Gold I - III. All other times, I enjoyed playing ranked because even though I started losing traction after hitting high Gold, I was still ascending the ranks. I can understand the frustration of having to grind slowly, but I would rather take comfort in the fact that I am at least advancing. This might be more of a struggle for you than me, but maybe that's just because I've played this game for quite some time. [quote=Ixtellor] 1) So it only took him a short time to get to his current rank (Diamond/Master) --- probably like a 7 foot kid who needs a season to get good at Basketball, but then dominates the game once he learns a few moves. But your talking about a statistical anomoly that doesn't prove anything. In stats we call those outliars.[/quote] Not at all. He's not the only one I know of that got better. He's pretty smart, I admit, but putting him aside, I also said I got from Silver to Plat in the space of a season and I'm no genius. These aren't outlying cases because it happens ALL the time. There are even a few I can list on this site alone as well as an entire ranked team's worth which I played with (originally all low Gold/Silver, now all Diamond or Platinum). It just seems to me that you're just using statistics to say that 'I can't do this because the numbers say I can't'. Barring the time you're able to spend on this game, there's literally nothing preventing you from actually improving at this game. [quote=Ixtellor] Bronze is a stupid rank because probably have the people in it are on their 2nd or 3rd accounts. So the really bad players who belong there are frequently playing against higher ranked players who don't really belong in there. (Many players intentionally lose games because they dont want to rank up --- they like going 30-0 on new players rather play at their own skill level --- HENCE ruining that whole rank)[/quote] Didn't stop me getting out. [quote=Ixtellor] This is anecdotal evidence. It's not proving your point. Yes some guys play the lottery and win --- it doesn't mean lottery playing is a viable roadmap to wealth. Perhaps your a naturally gifted gamer, or maybe you came over from DOTA and just needed to learn the champs, etc.[/quote] You can LOOK at our past rankings. I was in Bronze, ffs, and I have the icon to prove it. I wasn't born into Gold or conveniently gifted Platinum, I was in goddamn Bronze and for a season, so was he, and he has the icon to prove it too. You don't get Bronze for a season, followed by Silver another season without being bad at the game. That's at least 2 years worth of gaming in order to finally get good at the game (3 for me). This isn't mere 'anecdotal evidence', it's actual STATS. you can go onto my profile and check my stats. My CS was shit, my KDAs were shit, my item builds were shit. Hell, I didn't even know how to jungle for a good half of the season. My friend's stats are about the same. Stop making excuses for me, saying I'm a 'naturally gifted' player or 'I came over from DotA' (neither of which are even remotely true). I can't even beat the campaign on Starcraft II and I hear that's worse than being Bronze on that game (since there's apparently a minimum CPM that you need to beat the game). I took the time to do my research and got better at LoL, that's ALL there is to it. Right now, you are belittling the effort that he and I took to actually improve at the goddamn game and that is downright disrespectful. It may be anecdotal, but that doesn't stop it being true. You think we got out of low tiers by lottery? I don't think you're a stupid guy, but that's a pretty silly thing to say. To clarify, we were both Bronze in Season 2, Silver in Season 3, I hit Plat in Season 4 and he hit Diamond I/Master in Season 4 (I say Diamond I/Master because Master was only later introduced). That's 3 year's worth of gaming. [quote=Ixtellor] 1) In silver league --- its very advantageous to play in different lanes. If you can win 2 of 3 lanes, your will probably win the game. So I totally disagree.[/quote] Honestly didn't matter to me. My duoqueue partner and I just played whatever we wanted - for me, that just happened to be support or jungle 90% of the time. [quote=Ixtellor] 2) I have an 80%+ win rate when I duo. My problem is that all my duo partners made gold or plat and don't want to duo anymore. Or I play so infrequently that I can't get a consistent partner.[/quote] Well, it kinda sounds like they kinda carried you in games, they improved themselves whilst you remained relatively static. Just an interpretation, but it's kinda the same thing when I got dropped from ranked teams. But it's also one of the things that motivated me to improve. There are plenty of people that are happy to duoq though, if you know where to look.[/quote]

[quote=utopus][quote=Ixtellor] If it was as simple as "just learn to play like a diamond" then everyone would do it. Animation canceling, Being a riven who spams Q but also gets in an AA between every single hit of the Q key are not things most of the public can do. Also, its not like I and tons of others dont watch videos and try to get better -- we do. The fact is we aren't Diamond. Thats ok -- I dont need to be Diamond. I am a professional and have limited time to play the game or practice. By your logic, everyone should just learn the game and be Faker. Or everyone should have been Master level in Starcraft. [/quote] I ended last season in diamond, and my mechanics were terrible. They're still terrible. Having finished placements in silver last season, I can tell you that the problem isn't that you're not improving your mechanics. It's the fact that you don't actually know what you need to improve. When I tutor silvers and bronzes, and I ask them to analyse their own games, the reasons that list for their loss totally differ from the reasons I tell them why they lost. If you're finding it to be so difficult to improve, it's probably because there's some sort of game knowledge that you need to learn better, but you don't know what that game mechanic is, [quote] Once again you revert to the "professional 1% can carry teams, therefore everyone should be able to carry teams". I already stated what you just repeated several times -- I can't carry a bad team. I can beat my enemy jungler or mid or top and I can win my lane and out farm my opponant --- IE I will never be the weak link on my team --- but I still can't carry a bad team. (On volibear or Udyr I can occasionally a bad team if it doesn't get out of control.) My only desire is to not be teamed up with people who don't understand basics like "CS and warding is important". [/quote] You know, he doesn't have to use professionals as an example. He could use me, Thalia Kael, MissMaw, or himself. We all started season 4 with pretty shitty placements, and we all got outta silver. [quote] Again, my defintion is being matched with people who haven't even figured out that 100 CS as mid in a 40 min game is devestatingly bad. [/quote] What about all the times that your teammates have shit on your opponents? [quote]Gold tier is my goal. Again, I have a job and family and I feel like I can consistently play better or as good as the golds I get matched with. Its the 100 CS 40 min ADC's I want to get away from. OR tops that let Nasus farm under his tower the whole game while yelling at the jungler to "tower dive him!!" I just want to be the fuck away from those people. [/quote] You have to earn it. It's only fair. [quote=Ixtellor] At this point your kind of agreeing that ELO hell exists in that your teammates are a huge part of if you are go up the ladder or not. (If you can get lucky and be carried up, then it reasons you could get unlucky and be artifically held down)[/quote] [quote]Bronze is a stupid rank because probably have the people in it are on their 2nd or 3rd accounts. So the really bad players who belong there are frequently playing against higher ranked players who don't really belong in there. (Many players intentionally lose games because they dont want to rank up --- they like going 30-0 on new players rather play at their own skill level --- HENCE ruining that whole rank)[/quote] Actually, smurfing shouldn't really play a big factor. It's not like every game you play, smurfs will be playing against you. There will be times when smurfs will be on your team too. In fact, if you took 100 bronze games, i'm sure that the amount of games where you played against a high rating smurf and the games you played with a high rating smurf are about the same. Same goes for trolls. It's not like every time you play, trolls will be playing with you. There will be instances where trolls will be on your opponents team too, and that will balance out - In fact, assuming your attitude is better than the average bronze player (never leave games, no toxicity, no trolling), this should actually increase your win rate against your opponents. [quote] This is anecdotal evidence. It's not proving your point. Yes some guys play the lottery and win --- it doesn't mean lottery playing is a viable roadmap to wealth. Perhaps your a naturally gifted gamer, or maybe you came over from DOTA and just needed to learn the champs, etc. [/quote] You just told him not to use a professional as an example. What would you say if sirell used me as an example instead? Am i also a statistical anomaly? What about people who started silver last season and ended in plat? Are they also statistical anomalies? [quote] 1) In silver league --- its very advantageous to play in different lanes. If you can win 2 of 3 lanes, your will probably win the game. So I totally disagree. 2) I have an 80%+ win rate when I duo. My problem is that all my duo partners made gold or plat and don't want to duo anymore. Or I play so infrequently that I can't get a consistent partner. I recently found a gold player, who got placed in silver and we are currently 25 and 3. With 2 of the losses coming when we were the 2 last picks. In summary, I want to make gold, I feel like I can compete in Gold, but I will earn a lot of losses because I can't carry an 0-15 bottom to victory, especially once they have decided we 'cant win' and they throw in the towel.[/quote] When you Duo Q, you are matched against higher MMR players to compensate for the advantage of communication with someone you know. IMO it's easier to abuse that sort of communication if you guys can get into eachother's lanes (e.g. jungle/mid, duo bot) Keep in mind that for each time your bot lane throws a game for you, you can expect there to be a bot lane that throws one of your opponents games for them.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]since i can't be bothered to respond to everything: [quote=Ixtellor]Animation canceling, Being a riven who spams Q but also gets in an AA between every single hit of the Q key are not things most of the public can do.[/quote] 1) You don't need to be diamond to animation cancel 2) moat low ~ mid diamonds can't animation cancel 3) qaaqaaqaa isn't animation cancelling You seem to have a misconception that only pros or high diamonds can carry through low elo. All of your text is basically saying "i cant do it" if you can't balance your own work time with game time and improve at the game that's your problem. Countless people above the age of 25 who are currently employed are in various ranks. Completely irrelevant. If you care about improving enough, you'd spend the time wasted on arguing on this thread to actually analyze your own gameplay, watch vods of better people, and work on getting better To conclude this stupid argument: [quote=Ixtellor]I already stated what you just repeated several times -- I can't carry a bad team. I can beat my enemy jungler or mid or top and I can win my lane and out farm my opponant --- IE I will never be the weak link on my team --- but I still can't carry a bad team. (On volibear or Udyr I can occasionally a bad team if it doesn't get out of control.)[/quote] then you belong at your rank. That's how the god damn ladder system works at EVERY RANK[/quote]

[quote=Fat_fast]Unbelievable, I thought this thread would be dead after a few choice comments. I suppose a throughly beaten corpse can still be squeezed for this much juice if you try hard enough, or for those who got in an elo hell, not hard enough. You shouldn't feel sad about it, I mean you don't really invest that much into the game, any half-decent player would need around 300+ hours below the belt. It wouldn't be fair for you guys to steamroll at LoL playing casual whilst other pushing themselves to the limit. I'm not saying you guys, people with low Elo in general, deserve a horrible match, I'm saying you shouldn't really expect the game or anything to treat you with preference. Though the internet has made sure that the clique Q&A informed you of why you're there, but I think most of you just feel delusional facing it. Heck, I'm not sure why most even want a higher MMR anyway, if the only thing they are looking for is easy victory that doubles as a chance to gloat about their relatively better skills. Getting to the top doesn't mean a rosy life, it just mean you still have to play the same game but with even more vicious opponent/ally, who will more likely than not tear your throat out for missing the big minion. You need to be a bigger masochist compare to when you're gold/silver/bronze to actually enjoy that, or be one of those hipsters who claimed to be "stimulated by the challenge"(Guess where they shove their challenger title award to). Tl;DR:To summarize my main point, you shouldn't/ don't need to get a higher MMR if you think it's gonna get you a better game. Think of it as the equivalent of Australian's vegemite or the French's blue cheese, higher MMR is an acquired taste, it is different and therefore not necessarily an improvement. If you're looking for a good time stomping mud holes and walking them dry, please be responsible and play some PvE or one of those pay-to-win games. Smurfing is always the way to go if you're just too much of a wet kitty.(don't bully the newcomers, too much)(and don't be an uptight asshole when you own them, you're not that useful when you're playing for real anyway)[/quote]

[quote=Fat_fast]Oh and regarding the dude's quest for gold, I'm not sure what are you even asking anymore. I don't really know what you're hoping to hear, but there is not a single easy way to get what you want. To be frank, the difference between gold and silver is almost negligible, so much so that fact such as gold-level player has problem winning a game entirely by himself is, for a lack of better word, obvious. Like I said, 300 hour plus for a half decent player, in case you have some experience and efficiency, you can cut it down to somewhere around 150-200. Most spend the time rather leisurely so you don't see many complain about it, only those who rush these sorts of stuff can hit a metaphorical wall that bluntly. Anyway you look at it, you need distance and perspective, nothing I tell you and nothing you hear will help you more than a smidge. But hey, after you're through with all of this, you will be able to look down the low elo peeps the same way these guys did, probably because you realize how silly you were overthinking about nothing.[/quote]