MOBAFire Tournaments

[quote=Mowen][quote=SixSonatas] I think the main problem with separating ChallengerDiamond and PlatGoldSilverBronze is that there simply aren't enough teams to make up a tournament. Maybe if it it was ChallengerDiamondPlat but even then what discouragement is there for a higher level team from smurfing on a lower level tournament? [/quote] We could host them on the same day / same time so the higher level players would have to choose between smurfing and participating in the other tournament. If there was a higher level tournament the prizes would be nicer so we hope that would encourage them to participate in that one. [quote=throatslasher]Do my rule: if you are diamond or challenger, your team CAN NOT participate unless you have active Moba members on your team. I wanted to play in the Moba tournament to get far and face psi guards team, and I can't remember but there was another team of a few plat/d with active members on it. I say no diamond unless they contribute X number of posts or guides, and no challenger period. [/quote] Quotas are an ineffective way of determining site participation, and would decrease tournament participation. I feel like people are either going to participate or they won't, and if you make them in order to play they'll just make some crap comments and guides, call it a day, and never do anything again. It also seems odd to specifically rule out "diamond unless they contribute X number of posts or guides, and no challenger period." @Mooninites I listened to your blog, and I think you have some very good points. I do know that a few people have mentioned liking playing against the challenger / diamond players even if they get stomped, such as Ice and Pheyniex. As I said in the OP, if you aren't Diamond or Challenger but want play in that bracket you can go ahead. I don't really think Platinum players are "bad players," like you are implying by saying that the lower bracket would just let people be "bad." There are less diamonds and challengers (obviously) but the idea would be to provide better prizes to encourage more participation from these users than we currently have. We were actually surprised by the number of challenger / high diamond players that were signing up based on the prizes we were offering. Since Challenger tier players are currently excluded from tournaments we are trying to think of options for our tournament system that gives everybody a chance to compete, but that gives players who are good a feel of a tough, but winnable competition. This is just an idea and we are by no means saying it is going to happen, so let's put away the torches and pitchforks for now. You can be upset but don't lose sleep over this! Thanks for all the feedback guys, it is very valuable![/quote]

[quote=Bioalchemist]i can't say one way or the other how I would do it. but I do have to say that if you are going to call it a community cup than the community should be the ones to participate not a bunch of outside teams looking for cash.[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=GrandmasterD] Advantage? You talk about it if they get some kind of boost at the start of the game. They don't have an advantage, they are, probably, just overall better at the game. I can win all the tournaments in the world if I got rid of people who were better than me. [/quote] You talk about it as if being good at a skill based game isn't an advantage. No, it's pretty clear that matching Silver players up against Challenger players isn't fair. The Challenger players are going to win. If they don't, there's something strange going on. If they don't, we'd want to know what the hell is going on. Tournaments are generally built in such a way to be fair. Nobody wants an unfair tournament. It's not fun to participate in, it's not fun to watch, and it's otherwise not good. This is, for example, large tournaments aren't open to public participation; it's not fair to the best teams to be at the mercy of a huge bracket that can adversely impact their placement, it's not fair to other teams to be allowed to join a tournament they have no hope of winning. (And it's not fair to anyone who wants to watch good games, either.) So I suggest that divided tournaments are, inherently, more fair than what we're doing right now. They don't allow better players, who we [i]know[/i] will win, to prevent lower tier teams from losing. They don't allow better players to get matched up against other better players very early in the brackets, get knocked out of the tournament, and place disproportionately lower than their skill level actually deserves. [b]But this doesn't mean that divided tournaments are actually what we want.[/b] They are fair, but not open. If the point of these tournaments is to be open, we should let them be open and tell fairness to piss off. It's only if we are interested in being fair more than we are interested in being open (which isn't at all clear) that we really need to have this discussion. Personally, I don't believe our community is large enough to really let us restrict tournament participation to MOBAFire activity. And asking teams to create some minimal amount of content in order to participate is probably just going to result in a lot of crappy content thrown together just to get in the tournament rather than much content that's worth having, so I don't think that any sort of post or guide requirement is a good idea. Given MOBAFire's open nature, I believe that an open tournament should be more important to us than a fair tournament, although efforts to make the tournaments as fair as possible are also important. To that end, [b]I do not think that an entirely divided tournament structure is a good idea[/b], and I would rather that we instead lower the prizes offered (as I suggested earlier) to discourage leeching behavior from tournament teams. I don't think that smaller prizes will significantly discourage lower skilled teams, who are more likely to join for the experience of being in a tournament rather than a reasonable expectation of winning the prizes, and I already stated that I believe that extremely highly skilled teams will be less interested in a smaller prize pool and therefore less likely to join the tournament if that is their only motivation.[/quote]

[quote=SixSonatas][quote=Mowen] We could host them on the same day / same time so the higher level players would have to choose between smurfing and participating in the other tournament. If there was a higher level tournament the prizes would be nicer so we hope that would encourage them to participate in that one. [/quote] With this point, I'd like to bring up the point of higher level teams in a bigger bracket. Let's say it's C/D/P and G/S/B split. P players may not have incentive to go up against C/D teams due to the skill gap. This gives P players the incentive to smurf in the G/S/B tournament to defeat them easily for a prize rather than having very slim of a chance of winning anything in a higher level tournament. Let me also bring up this point based on my previous point. Even with the C/D/P and G/S/B split, what's to say that B players can beat G players? The skill gap between B and G is tremendous. Now I realize B players may not participate in tournaments as often, but what you'd get here would be the new complaint of players complaining about losing to higher level players. Throatslasher complained about C players correct? He is a D player himself. B or even S players can easily complain about G players in their G/S/B split the same way a D player can complain about a C player. In the end we just have complaints upon complaints until we have a tournament separating not only C/D/P/G/S/B but tiers as well so that no one can actually complain they're going against people of higher level. Heaven knows how hard it would be to run a tournament with C/D1/2/3/4/5/P1/2/3/4/5/G1/2/3/4/5/S1/2/3/4/5/B1/2/3/4/5 all at the same time, and how hard it would be to find a sufficient number of teams for them. May I get your thoughts on those points, Mowen?[/quote]

[quote=throatslasher]Last time we played we had an extremely close game with a team of gold players. Gold and plat players can beat diamond players. Diamonds can't beat challenger, or even high established diamond 1 players. If you just bar challengers, they will play on smurfs. The only way to stop them is post count. They're happy to jump on smurfs, but have a team restriction of 500 posts and 1 guide between 5 people and they will stay away.[/quote]

[quote=IceCreamy]Also suggest there would be a split, how will it be done? The team I'm in has a D, a P and 3 G players... *is still against any split for earlier mentioned reasons*[/quote]

[quote=throatslasher]From mowens post above me it's clear she's made up her mind on a split tournament. Why ask our opinion when you've already made up your mind? Life: if you have an open tournament, the same challenger team will win every month. I deserve to: Be in the tournament based on how active I am Win the tournament - I'm da best Moba player! But we will never know because there is no Moba tournament. We got to play 2 teams of non-30 players, one really tough gold team that gave us a run for our money, and a challenger team that was a 20 minute surrender. My ideal grand finals would be me vs psi or sonata. But that will never happen because the bads cry foul and want to force us to play against random challengers. Sorry, bad people that want me out of their tournament, I bust my ass and use my brain to improve. I also contribute 10x more to this website than the average member. I want the tourney to be by Moba, for Moba, and fuck anyone that doesn't want to use this website for anything but the tournament prizes.[/quote]

[quote=C4 Lasty]If you divide the tournament into 2. Plat/below and Diamond+ A plat team is just going to crush the amateur tournament and a Challenger team is going to crush the D+ tourney. Lvl 26 kids CAN'T beat an all Plat team. It just isn't going to happen. You can't divide the tournaments you won't get enough teams for the D+ tournament and the amateur tournament will STILL get rolled. The only way to do it is a team post count. You don't fix the problem the lvl 26 kids are whining about because they are still going to get rolled and you just piss off the good D+ players. You can also disallow ANYONE that is on a challenger 5's team or has achieved challenger in solo que. IMO Challenger = PRO[/quote]

[quote=lifebaka][quote=C4 Lasty] You can't divide the tournaments you won't get enough teams for the D+ tournament [/quote] For a traditional tournament bracket, sure. But there are options other than single/double elimination brackets that can still work really well with small numbers of teams, such as round robin or the Swiss system. [quote=throatslasher] Life: if you have an open tournament, the same challenger team will win every month. [/quote] I'm aware that this has been happening, and I read the bit about them just wanting the prizes, and yeah, I agree that this is a problem. I'm just not sure that preventing teams of a certain skill level or higher from participating is really going to be constructive. And as both Mowen and I have mentioned, post or guide requirements is likely to get us a lot of crap if anything; it's easier and probably about as effective at getting us real contributors to just not have that requirement at all.[/quote]

[quote=throatslasher]You're wrong and mowen is wrong. Post count is a fantastic way to prevent smurfs and fraud as well as grow the community. It will most likely discourage people from just playing to cash in. It no longer becomes worth their time and they stay away. Oh, and it will also GROW THE FUCKING COMMUNITY. If someone makes a bullshit post to pad numbers, it's singled out and warned right away, so shit posts and guides will be forcibly deleted. There should be now post requirements if a team has all silver players or below. That way if they smurf on silver accounts and they roll the tournaments it will be easy to spot the cheaters. Look, every time I bring an objection, it causes a massive overhaul and my ideas get implemented. We wouldn't be having this conversation if I hadn't brought it up in the first place. I brought up the guides issue, and they overhauled it. They ignored my advice and ideas, and the system is still shit. I suggested an overhaul to blogs. Guess what? They overhauled blogs. They didn't really follow my ideas so I'm sure it will turn to shit eventually. I suggested tournaments were unfair and here we Are. They are ignoring my ideas AGAIN and they will fuck it up again. Can one of you mods, like, actually ask me how to fucking fix this? I could fix it in a heartbeat, instead of polling every Tom, dick and Harry. It's fucking frustrating when you acknowledge my ideas and simulyaneously tell me to go fuck myself.[/quote]