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I know that MobaFire's guide system is still flawed as hell seeing how many "bad" guides float at the top, but to get down all the way to the root of the problem....
Did you ppl really get riled up by a post written by a guy who's like 12y old mentally?
He doesn't flame but you can clearly see that he lacks impartiality and is just out there to get some attention.
Did you ppl really get riled up by a post written by a guy who's like 12y old mentally?
He doesn't flame but you can clearly see that he lacks impartiality and is just out there to get some attention.
Mooninites wrote:
Quite frankly if you're going to make that argument for anyone else, don't be asinine enough to think it can't apply to you
And you assume she thinks it doesn't apply to her guides based on what, exactly......?
It's funny how people assume things that haven't been said.
Dude. First of all, guides CAN be catered to newer players. So? That's not a logical and accurate response to leaving incorrect information everywhere in the guide.
Second of all, as Wayne said, don't EVER assume things that haven't been said. It diverts the focus onto something minor and irrelevant and just makes everyone more mad. I don't think she even mentioned anything about her guide nor about being obsessed over solomid. If you want proper discussion over something don't try to ruin it yourself.
Third of all, the problem with most guides is not that they're wrong in many aspects. It's that they're focusing their logic over something flawed.
For example, a guide can say "Don't push your lane, you'll get ganked." A BETTER guide, however, would say "Pushing is a general concept and goal of the game. However pushing too hard often leaves you prone to jungle ganks which could result in kills to the enemy. Overall, pushing is what you want to achieve without being ganked.(Something of the sort)". The point the guide tries to convey completely changes. Newer players who see "Don't push" will think that it's 100% wrong and stupid, which eventually leads them in the wrong direction.
The same can be applied to itemization.
In the end a guide's focus is to give the readers proper knowledge of how to properly assess the situations they are faced with and to cope with it or to be told specifically what to do / buy in what situations.
These so-called "Newb-friendly" guides are guides that attempt to be instructive and simple to understand but eventually end up as guides which teach wrong things. These guides will be labeled by the more experienced players who are better at evaluating viability as bad guides, which eventually end up as guides we don't want on the top in our community.
Lastly, just to mention this again, please focus on the issue at hand, not what other people do.
Second of all, as Wayne said, don't EVER assume things that haven't been said. It diverts the focus onto something minor and irrelevant and just makes everyone more mad. I don't think she even mentioned anything about her guide nor about being obsessed over solomid. If you want proper discussion over something don't try to ruin it yourself.
Third of all, the problem with most guides is not that they're wrong in many aspects. It's that they're focusing their logic over something flawed.
For example, a guide can say "Don't push your lane, you'll get ganked." A BETTER guide, however, would say "Pushing is a general concept and goal of the game. However pushing too hard often leaves you prone to jungle ganks which could result in kills to the enemy. Overall, pushing is what you want to achieve without being ganked.(Something of the sort)". The point the guide tries to convey completely changes. Newer players who see "Don't push" will think that it's 100% wrong and stupid, which eventually leads them in the wrong direction.
The same can be applied to itemization.
In the end a guide's focus is to give the readers proper knowledge of how to properly assess the situations they are faced with and to cope with it or to be told specifically what to do / buy in what situations.
These so-called "Newb-friendly" guides are guides that attempt to be instructive and simple to understand but eventually end up as guides which teach wrong things. These guides will be labeled by the more experienced players who are better at evaluating viability as bad guides, which eventually end up as guides we don't want on the top in our community.
Lastly, just to mention this again, please focus on the issue at hand, not what other people do.
jinlee
<Member>
<Member>
this forum died 2 months why are we reviving it we already know that the redit post was stupid and that our guide system isnt perfect but were getting better and that solomids guides have problems ( much bigger than ours if you ask me ) why are we bringing it back
all credit for this amazing sig goes to the nameless bard
if you thought what i said was worth it a rep would be rainbow pony awesome
Wayne3100 wrote:
And you assume she thinks it doesn't apply to her guides based on what, exactly......?
It's funny how people assume things that haven't been said.
You don't have to say something to imply it, I think you're intelligent enough to know that
Embracing wrote:
Dude. First of all, guides CAN be catered to newer players. So? That's not a logical and accurate response to leaving incorrect information everywhere in the guide.
I'm not saying that either, but I guess I should just go off on both your
Renekton and Ezreal guide then? I can find plenty of flaws in them, and it doesn't help that you have the "gold" emblem on your profile. So what we're doing with this system is were telling people that this guide is good because it's written by a high elo player and that's not always the case. Anyway I'll go into it more later in this postEmbracing wrote:
Second of all, as Wayne said, don't EVER assume things that haven't been said. It diverts the focus onto something minor and irrelevant and just makes everyone more mad. I don't think she even mentioned anything about her guide nor about being obsessed over solomid. If you want proper discussion over something don't try to ruin it yourself.
are you really going to sit here and lecture me on diverting focus onto something 'minor and irrelevant' when you're the guy who actually gives a **** what reddit thinks? As I replied to Wayne, plenty of things can be implied in a post.
Embracing wrote:
Third of all, the problem with most guides is not that they're wrong in many aspects. It's that they're focusing their logic over something flawed.
For example, a guide can say "Don't push your lane, you'll get ganked." A BETTER guide, however, would say "Pushing is a general concept and goal of the game. However pushing too hard often leaves you prone to jungle ganks which could result in kills to the enemy. Overall, pushing is what you want to achieve without being ganked.(Something of the sort)". The point the guide tries to convey completely changes. Newer players who see "Don't push" will think that it's 100% wrong and stupid, which eventually leads them in the wrong direction.
The same can be applied to itemization.
whether a guide is good or not is subjective. It's an opinion; your views on what makes a guide vs. what doesn't can be very different from everyone elses.
Embracing wrote:
In the end a guide's focus is to give the readers proper knowledge of how to properly assess the situations they are faced with and to cope with it or to be told specifically what to do / buy in what situations.
It's absolutely absurd to think this is the main focus of a guide. Guide's are general outlines of how to play a champion/game mode/etc. There's no way to include information for players to properly assess every situation in a guide.
Embracing wrote:
These so-called "Newb-friendly" guides are guides that attempt to be instructive and simple to understand but eventually end up as guides which teach wrong things. These guides will be labeled by the more experienced players who are better at evaluating viability as bad guides, which eventually end up as guides we don't want on the top in our community.
This doesn't happen, so stop pretending like it does. Very few of these "experienced players" bother to comment on low level guides. And that's not to say that these high elo guides are any better. I've seen plenty of "high elo" guides on here that are absolute trash.
Thanks for the Signature MissMaw!
Mooninites wrote:
You don't have to say something to imply it, I think you're intelligent enough to know that
Fair enough, then let's take another look at what she said and what she could've possibly implied based on that:
astrolia wrote:
LaCorpse's Ahri guide being the #1 champ guide on the site can probably be attributed to her role on the forums as a graphic designer, since people she made graphics and sigs for might have also gone to upvote her guide as a courtesy. With this system, guides that float up to #1 tend to stay there.
If this implies anything, it is that astrolia's guides weren't upvoted by people that requested graphics/sigs from her. It still doesn't mention anything about people upvoting because she's high elo yes/no or people upvoting because her guides look good yes/no.
That is what I was talking about when I mentioned "things that haven't been said".
complexity
<Member>
<Member>
Mooninites wrote:
And that's not to say that these high elo guides are any better. I've seen plenty of "high elo" guides on here that are absolute trash.
So it's just like solo mid?
... Why else would her guides be upvoted, Wayne? One of her descriptions is "Oh, and unlike Graves, Quinn doesn't have True Grit when she ults."
Best explanation ever. Stopped reading at that point, right in the intro. You know what else Quinn doesn't have? Smokescreen... Buckshot... hmmm... Collateral Damage... Mentioning, "Quinn doesn't have a handy escape like Graves' Quickdraw" is fine. But randomly saying, "And she also doesn't have True Grit"? roflcopter how did this guide get to #1.
I know my own guides probably have stupid *** things in them. Difference is, I'm not Diamond, and I didn't write my guide a few days ago. If I rewrote all my guides right now, I could probably word them much better, and it is a project I will undertake. Because like Rose said, some guides have thins like, "Don't push or you'll get ganked", which my guides do, or to some degree they do.
So how does Astrolai get votes? She gets votes because:
1) FREQUENT FLYER: Frequent MobaFire users give her the first 20 up votes. This is common for all regular users. MissMaw, myself, Psi, anyone who knows a lot of people/is well known often get their guides upvoted by regulars - this doesn't happen for people who are unknown. For 90% or more guides never get past a few random upvotes from people who don't know them. I'm not saying this is a problem; we are friends and friends upvote each other's guide, especially without reading it! However, as a problem, this problem is a never-ending cycle. When a known member is upvoted by another known member, more members (and even new users) will upvote due to seeing orange, green and blue user upvotes. The mentality of "if these high elo/dedicated users of MobaFire think this guide is good, then it should be good!".
2) GODDESS OF LOL: She's high elo. So immediately any guide she writes, regardless of comparisons drawn between passives of champions, will be at the very top of every search list, in addition to getting a spot on the front page via High Elo. This gives the guide a lot of potential to be viewed and further voted on. Not to mention the connotations of being high elo, "high elo is always right!", "she's diamond, how could she be wrong?"
3) CODING FIEND: She uses coding wonderfully. So many people will read the cheat sheet, look at the coding, and +1. This is completely true, and I won't deny that my first few votes on any of my guides consist of, "Great formatting" or "looks lovely as always". Even if coding isn't the first thing people notice, it is something that they will consider unconsciously, "this guide is well written, AND looks great... I was thinking of maybe downvoting because of the True Grit comment, but... that coding... it deserves a +1 just for the hard effort put into the guide!" (for a prime example of a real comment like this, check the first comment of my Ashe guide. Pang could have easily -voted, but instead +voted due to "my hard work")
4) HELPFUL: This is minor (or major, depending on the contribution level to MobaFire), and could be coupled with point 1, but anything she does for the site, draws attention to her guides. Her other guides, her comments on other guides, forum posts and places where she helps people (Column guide), ToC/anchor help via PMs. This point also includes +rep count and title (ie Scout).
Now compare this 4-fold method of getting votes to someone who: isn't high elo, isn't a prominent user/doesn't have a status on MobaFire (eg Editor etc) and doesn't know how to code. This second person will get next to no votes at all.
NOW. For the FUN comparison. Let's compare Astrolai's vote getting, to Bree's.
1) FREQUENT FLYER: Being a welll-liked/known member (point 1 in the other list).
2) HELPFUL: Sig making, ie services to MobaFire (which is point 4 in Astrolia's list).
3) CODING FIEND. Coding.
Straight away, it's clear to see that Astrolia has a higher chance of:
1) Getting Scouted
2) Being featured on the front page
3) Getting votes
tldr: The people who get the most votes on MobaFire fulfill these four categories:
1) FREQUENT FLYER: Are well-known, thus likely to get votes from other MobaFire people
2) GOD/GODDESS OF LOL: Are high elo, thus featured on the front page, and likely scouted too, coz fanboys
3) CODING FIEND: Use BBCode effectively and aesthetically, thus getting votes on "prettiness" alone
4) HELPFUL: Are active on MobaFire, offering many services, including other guides and sig making
If you tick off every point, it's likely you have a high rated guide. Using the Player Finder and sorting by reputation/post count, you can see who aligns with this theory. There are a few outliers, like Dufftime, who is notorious for never coding.
Anyway, that was fun to write 8D
Best explanation ever. Stopped reading at that point, right in the intro. You know what else Quinn doesn't have? Smokescreen... Buckshot... hmmm... Collateral Damage... Mentioning, "Quinn doesn't have a handy escape like Graves' Quickdraw" is fine. But randomly saying, "And she also doesn't have True Grit"? roflcopter how did this guide get to #1.
I know my own guides probably have stupid *** things in them. Difference is, I'm not Diamond, and I didn't write my guide a few days ago. If I rewrote all my guides right now, I could probably word them much better, and it is a project I will undertake. Because like Rose said, some guides have thins like, "Don't push or you'll get ganked", which my guides do, or to some degree they do.
So how does Astrolai get votes? She gets votes because:
1) FREQUENT FLYER: Frequent MobaFire users give her the first 20 up votes. This is common for all regular users. MissMaw, myself, Psi, anyone who knows a lot of people/is well known often get their guides upvoted by regulars - this doesn't happen for people who are unknown. For 90% or more guides never get past a few random upvotes from people who don't know them. I'm not saying this is a problem; we are friends and friends upvote each other's guide, especially without reading it! However, as a problem, this problem is a never-ending cycle. When a known member is upvoted by another known member, more members (and even new users) will upvote due to seeing orange, green and blue user upvotes. The mentality of "if these high elo/dedicated users of MobaFire think this guide is good, then it should be good!".
2) GODDESS OF LOL: She's high elo. So immediately any guide she writes, regardless of comparisons drawn between passives of champions, will be at the very top of every search list, in addition to getting a spot on the front page via High Elo. This gives the guide a lot of potential to be viewed and further voted on. Not to mention the connotations of being high elo, "high elo is always right!", "she's diamond, how could she be wrong?"
3) CODING FIEND: She uses coding wonderfully. So many people will read the cheat sheet, look at the coding, and +1. This is completely true, and I won't deny that my first few votes on any of my guides consist of, "Great formatting" or "looks lovely as always". Even if coding isn't the first thing people notice, it is something that they will consider unconsciously, "this guide is well written, AND looks great... I was thinking of maybe downvoting because of the True Grit comment, but... that coding... it deserves a +1 just for the hard effort put into the guide!" (for a prime example of a real comment like this, check the first comment of my Ashe guide. Pang could have easily -voted, but instead +voted due to "my hard work")
4) HELPFUL: This is minor (or major, depending on the contribution level to MobaFire), and could be coupled with point 1, but anything she does for the site, draws attention to her guides. Her other guides, her comments on other guides, forum posts and places where she helps people (Column guide), ToC/anchor help via PMs. This point also includes +rep count and title (ie Scout).
Now compare this 4-fold method of getting votes to someone who: isn't high elo, isn't a prominent user/doesn't have a status on MobaFire (eg Editor etc) and doesn't know how to code. This second person will get next to no votes at all.
NOW. For the FUN comparison. Let's compare Astrolai's vote getting, to Bree's.
1) FREQUENT FLYER: Being a welll-liked/known member (point 1 in the other list).
2) HELPFUL: Sig making, ie services to MobaFire (which is point 4 in Astrolia's list).
3) CODING FIEND. Coding.
Straight away, it's clear to see that Astrolia has a higher chance of:
1) Getting Scouted
2) Being featured on the front page
3) Getting votes
tldr: The people who get the most votes on MobaFire fulfill these four categories:
1) FREQUENT FLYER: Are well-known, thus likely to get votes from other MobaFire people
2) GOD/GODDESS OF LOL: Are high elo, thus featured on the front page, and likely scouted too, coz fanboys
3) CODING FIEND: Use BBCode effectively and aesthetically, thus getting votes on "prettiness" alone
4) HELPFUL: Are active on MobaFire, offering many services, including other guides and sig making
If you tick off every point, it's likely you have a high rated guide. Using the Player Finder and sorting by reputation/post count, you can see who aligns with this theory. There are a few outliers, like Dufftime, who is notorious for never coding.
Anyway, that was fun to write 8D
Wayne3100 wrote:
Fair enough, then let's take another look at what she said and what she could've possibly implied based on that:
If this implies anything, it is that astrolia's guides weren't upvoted by people that requested graphics/sigs from her. It still doesn't mention anything about people upvoting because she's high elo yes/no or people upvoting because her guides look good yes/no.
That is what I was talking about when I mentioned "things that haven't been said".
you're proving my point and you don't even realize it. Astrolia is making an assumption (i love how I get slammed for making assumptions but Astrolia doesn't) that LaCorpse's guide gets upvoted because she makes signatures or it looks nice, yet she has no way to prove that hers didn't get upvoted for the same reasons. Instead she implies that her guides got legitimate votes and for some reason LaCorpse's guide didn't. You're right she doesn't mention any of that in her post, because apparently she doesn't think that her guides can be upvoted for the same reasons either.
Thanks for the Signature MissMaw!
<MOBAFire Mother>
♡ sig by me ♡