You're still talking ****, please stop :/
About peel: skill is relative, your peel will be worse but the enemies challenging you will also be worse.
About 1v1: ADC isn't about 1v1'ing the enemy and it will never be
About 'best players', this is like the most nonsense argument ever and I can't even begin to comprehend how that is relevant at all.
About peel: skill is relative, your peel will be worse but the enemies challenging you will also be worse.
About 1v1: ADC isn't about 1v1'ing the enemy and it will never be
About 'best players', this is like the most nonsense argument ever and I can't even begin to comprehend how that is relevant at all.
Vynertje wrote:
You're still talking ****, please stop :/
About peel: skill is relative, your peel will be worse but the enemies challenging you will also be worse.
About 1v1: ADC isn't about 1v1'ing the enemy and it will never be
About 'best players', this is like the most nonsense argument ever and I can't even begin to comprehend how that is relevant at all.
About peel: skill is relative, your peel will be worse but the enemies challenging you will also be worse.
About 1v1: ADC isn't about 1v1'ing the enemy and it will never be
About 'best players', this is like the most nonsense argument ever and I can't even begin to comprehend how that is relevant at all.
Ixtellor wrote:
VexRoth is a silver V player with a losing record and probably about to be demoted to bronze.
In bronze league, peel isn't usually a thing. And since your ELO is a true reflection of ability, being in bronze/silver by definition means you are bad (no offense, im bad too).
So when you prime ADC in bronze, you are on an island while simultaneously being priority target #1 for the enemy.
So what happens when the zed/xin/vi (insert any gap closer or willing to flash champion) goes all in on you... you either have to beat them 1v1 or die. I have yet to meet a Silver ADC that I can't kill 1v1.
Playing a brusier means you can 1v1 + be tanky. At Vynertje's level, ADC's get tons of support and peel so of course they can kick butt. Down in the trenches where more than 80% of players live ADC is the most dangerous profession. Now of course if a Plat player smurfs and plays ADC its a different issue.
But show me a Silver ADC and ill Show you a dead ADC.
Lastly, I just looked at the MMR of the top players in the world --- the top 20 Udyr's have a higher rating than the best Draven in the world.
I know the peel sucks *** at my level most of the time. Hence why I have rank 5 mastery with
Ezreal and Corki. You aren't understanding why I pick Sivir. I pick her because her laning phase is reasonably safe, she has god like wave clear, and if we ever do team fight I can sit back and throw Ricochet and Boomerang Blade through the enemy team, Spell Shield the thing that will get me killed, and help my team start the fight or get out of the fight if it goes badly with On The Hunt.If you want to talk about Silver, I tell you a major thing that doesn't happen often in silver and that is keeping the side lanes pushed. Everyone just ends up mid milling around. The side lanes end up pushing against you and then your team can't do anything if they win that fight in Mid because they have to clear the side lanes before they can do anything else or risk losing towers. Half the time we lose the towers, because Silver. With Sivir, I can easily burn down two waves and push the lane out past river then get back to Mid before the fight starts. I also know the wave will eventually bounce, so if we don't win the team fight or it never happens, then I'll have a nice big wave to farm in the lane I pushed out past the river assuming I'm still alive.
Do I need work on my ADC? Obviously. Otherwise I'd be carrying more from that position. Right now I'm mostly fed up with having to coordinate with a support I don't know. Having a good support is like Braum and Lucian they make any ADC look better and generally have more influence on how the early laning phase goes than the ADC does.
VexRoth,
I never mentioned anything about Sivir. As a player who just escaped Silver for the first time after being there for 3 seasons I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't for --- carrying ones self out of silver as a silver ranked player (not a smurf). And my advice is don't play ADC if you want to more easily climb.
Vynertje,
"adc is never about 1v1" --- thats probably true at your level --- aka Formula one racing/world heavy weight champion --- but down at the street brawler of guys racing 200hp Mazdas'... ADC's are going to get into a lot of 1v1's. Cause they either A) split push by them selves or B) will receive zero peel.
"on peel" we Silvers may not know how to ward, or focus objectives, or cs --- but every bronze 3 zed/xin/gragas knows how to kill the squishy. So yes we are bad, but you are far more likely to see a silver xin actually attack the right target than you are see a silver top peel for his carries.
Or to give you a starcraft analogy. 6 pooling doesn't work at your level, but it works down here.
Boxing analogy: You're Floyd Maywether giving advice to a kid about to fight after school. I'm Kimblo Slice telling him to hit below the belt. (the diamond game doesnt' look like the silver game)
I never mentioned anything about Sivir. As a player who just escaped Silver for the first time after being there for 3 seasons I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't for --- carrying ones self out of silver as a silver ranked player (not a smurf). And my advice is don't play ADC if you want to more easily climb.
Vynertje,
"adc is never about 1v1" --- thats probably true at your level --- aka Formula one racing/world heavy weight champion --- but down at the street brawler of guys racing 200hp Mazdas'... ADC's are going to get into a lot of 1v1's. Cause they either A) split push by them selves or B) will receive zero peel.
"on peel" we Silvers may not know how to ward, or focus objectives, or cs --- but every bronze 3 zed/xin/gragas knows how to kill the squishy. So yes we are bad, but you are far more likely to see a silver xin actually attack the right target than you are see a silver top peel for his carries.
Or to give you a starcraft analogy. 6 pooling doesn't work at your level, but it works down here.
Boxing analogy: You're Floyd Maywether giving advice to a kid about to fight after school. I'm Kimblo Slice telling him to hit below the belt. (the diamond game doesnt' look like the silver game)
I used to care about KDA, now I care about CS and Objectives.
These are some nice sounding analogies but they are completely hollow.
"but every bronze 3 zed/xin/gragas knows how to kill the squishy"
wat no, they will poorly execute their combo's, they will stack cc instead of chaining, they will get hit by more of your own skillshots, they will not deal with kiting as well, they will miss their own skillshots, they will forget about actives and they will often even forget to focus one target (and I'm not even talking about focusing the right target here) ... the list goes on
"split push by them selves"
So basically you're saying it is bad to play ADC in silver because ADC's consciously decide to split push themselves? That basically comes down to saying "it's bad to play x because they make mistake y", at which point you can logically argue that it is bad to play ANY role because at any point in the game people make mistakes common to that role. As a matter of fact, if you are aware that this splitpushing by ADC is bad, you can make a profit out of it because you'll know not to do it. At that point you already gained one advantage over the enemy ADC in a late game situation.
"will receive zero peel."
Aside from the fact that zero is an exaggeration (and seriously you're also greatly overestimating how much teamwork or peel you can expect from a diamond game), I already explained above that this is (at the very least partially) made up by lack of skill from the enemy front line. I'm not saying this from a theoretical point of view, I've mentored people and watched their replays and it is VERY clear that this is the case.
Aside from all of this and to reply to your analogies, it is more than correct that high-Elo strategies do not work at low-Elo. However, this is not a high-Elo strategy therefore none of this applies. As an ADC you can do multiple things:
1) You can provide immense utility and/or waveclear through playing Kalista/Sivir and help your team that way
2) You can play a snowballing carry (Lucian, Kalista), shut down 2 players on the enemy team and snowball your damage to carry the game alone
3) You can pick a late game scaling champion that is impossible to kill late game (Ezreal) because of immense amounts of utility, gap closers and slows
Of course, as an ADC you need to be aware that you have a number of weaknesses but that goes for any role. Your argument can be reversed to form an apparently valid argument to not play any role. For example:
You shouldn't play a tank because people don't follow up on your engages, do not pay attention and do not chain their spells correctly (the reverse of not peeling correctly: a flaw on your team that prevents you from playing optimally). It's also bad because tanks tend to engage 1v5 and therefore die (the reverse dying 1v1: a mistake on your own side)
"but every bronze 3 zed/xin/gragas knows how to kill the squishy"
wat no, they will poorly execute their combo's, they will stack cc instead of chaining, they will get hit by more of your own skillshots, they will not deal with kiting as well, they will miss their own skillshots, they will forget about actives and they will often even forget to focus one target (and I'm not even talking about focusing the right target here) ... the list goes on
"split push by them selves"
So basically you're saying it is bad to play ADC in silver because ADC's consciously decide to split push themselves? That basically comes down to saying "it's bad to play x because they make mistake y", at which point you can logically argue that it is bad to play ANY role because at any point in the game people make mistakes common to that role. As a matter of fact, if you are aware that this splitpushing by ADC is bad, you can make a profit out of it because you'll know not to do it. At that point you already gained one advantage over the enemy ADC in a late game situation.
"will receive zero peel."
Aside from the fact that zero is an exaggeration (and seriously you're also greatly overestimating how much teamwork or peel you can expect from a diamond game), I already explained above that this is (at the very least partially) made up by lack of skill from the enemy front line. I'm not saying this from a theoretical point of view, I've mentored people and watched their replays and it is VERY clear that this is the case.
Aside from all of this and to reply to your analogies, it is more than correct that high-Elo strategies do not work at low-Elo. However, this is not a high-Elo strategy therefore none of this applies. As an ADC you can do multiple things:
1) You can provide immense utility and/or waveclear through playing Kalista/Sivir and help your team that way
2) You can play a snowballing carry (Lucian, Kalista), shut down 2 players on the enemy team and snowball your damage to carry the game alone
3) You can pick a late game scaling champion that is impossible to kill late game (Ezreal) because of immense amounts of utility, gap closers and slows
Of course, as an ADC you need to be aware that you have a number of weaknesses but that goes for any role. Your argument can be reversed to form an apparently valid argument to not play any role. For example:
You shouldn't play a tank because people don't follow up on your engages, do not pay attention and do not chain their spells correctly (the reverse of not peeling correctly: a flaw on your team that prevents you from playing optimally). It's also bad because tanks tend to engage 1v5 and therefore die (the reverse dying 1v1: a mistake on your own side)
Ixtellor wrote:
VexRoth,
I never mentioned anything about Sivir. As a player who just escaped Silver for the first time after being there for 3 seasons I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't for --- carrying ones self out of silver as a silver ranked player (not a smurf). And my advice is don't play ADC if you want to more easily climb.
I never mentioned anything about Sivir. As a player who just escaped Silver for the first time after being there for 3 seasons I have a good sense of what works and what doesn't for --- carrying ones self out of silver as a silver ranked player (not a smurf). And my advice is don't play ADC if you want to more easily climb.
Re-reads....and you are correct. My bad for that incorrect association.
Vynertje wrote:
These are some nice sounding analogies but they are completely hollow.
"but every bronze 3 zed/xin/gragas knows how to kill the squishy"
wat no, they will poorly execute their combo's, they will stack cc instead of chaining, they will get hit by more of your own skillshots, they will not deal with kiting as well, they will miss their own skillshots, they will forget about actives and they will often even forget to focus one target (and I'm not even talking about focusing the right target here) ... the list goes on
"but every bronze 3 zed/xin/gragas knows how to kill the squishy"
wat no, they will poorly execute their combo's, they will stack cc instead of chaining, they will get hit by more of your own skillshots, they will not deal with kiting as well, they will miss their own skillshots, they will forget about actives and they will often even forget to focus one target (and I'm not even talking about focusing the right target here) ... the list goes on
1) Responding because I consider the discussion to be an interesting philosophical discussion.
2) Who do you think better understands the abilities of silvers, you or me?
3) What takes more skill: An ADC kitting a Xin or a Xin hovering the cursor over the ADC and mashing buttons? Dr. Mundo, Garen, Gragas, all can just mash their keyboards and wreck ADC's in silver.
Silver's --- we panic and mash buttons. Works great for mundo, not so great for Jinx. Lower skill cap.
Quoted:
So basically you're saying it is bad to play ADC in silver because ADC's consciously decide to split push themselves?
All us silvers do it.Meaning every position will try and split push ven our supports do it. I still do it as Volibear Jungle even though I know its dumb as hell and costs me games.
The difference being when Darius split pushes he isnt' nearly as easy to shut down/murder as the ADC.
Quoted:
That basically comes down to saying "it's bad to play x because they make mistake y", at which point you can logically argue that it is bad to play ANY role because at any point in the game people make mistakes common to that role.
I'm only commenting on the actual mistakes I see in Silver (2000+ games) not all the hypothetical ones I have never witnessed. I have a large sample size to pull from.
Quoted:
As a matter of fact, if you are aware that this splitpushing by ADC is bad, you can make a profit out of it because you'll know not to do it. At that point you already gained one advantage over the enemy ADC in a late game situation.
You would think. Just like people are supposed to know not to shoot heroin... but here we are.
It's probably unintentional. You see a big wave, your team is being dumb, you don't see anything else going on so you keep farming then suddenly you realize "oh **** I'm alone and past the river!"
In my Gold 2 games, I'm still seeing squishys get caught over and over --- meaning they aren't learning.
Quoted:
"will receive zero peel."
Quoted:
Aside from the fact that zero is an exaggeration (and seriously you're also greatly overestimating how much teamwork or peel you can expect from a diamond game), I already explained above that this is (at the very least partially) made up by lack of skill from the enemy front line. I'm not saying this from a theoretical point of view, I've mentored people and watched their replays and it is VERY clear that this is the case.
Its like someone said earlier, everyone goes mid -- then the team that is ahead engages. Thats our skill level "Me ahead, me dive". Then we fight , smashing our keyboards and furiously clicking on the carriers OR the champ most near death. My advice... don't be the ADC, be Malphite. In several of my recent rankged gamesthe support out damaged the ADC. ADC's require more skill and farm than a button mashing Nautilus or Vel'Koz.
Quoted:
1) You can provide immense utility and/or waveclear through playing Kalista/Sivir and help your team that way
Quoted:
2) You can play a snowballing carry (Lucian, Kalista), shut down 2 players on the enemy team and snowball your damage to carry the game alone
Quoted:
3) You can pick a late game scaling champion that is impossible to kill late game (Ezreal) because of immense amounts of utility, gap closers and slows
While those are all true, I would argue they all require more skill than playing Mundo/Malphite/Garen.
Additonally, these 3 champs are way more forgiving, you can fall behind, get caught, and still win an encounter.
Quoted:
Of course, as an ADC you need to be aware that you have a number of weaknesses but that goes for any role. Your argument can be reversed to form an apparently valid argument to not play any role. For example:
Why do you think I haven't seen a single ADC banned in my last 100 games?
Malphite, Udyr, Xin, Yi, Nautilus, Darius, Riven --- thats 90% of all the bans in my games.
Easy to play, can fall behind and still do well, can 1v1, can team fight, can take a licking and keep on ticking, can out farm a silver ADC.
Last point,
I have been carried by Lucians and Ez's. I know how good they are and I know how frustrating they can be to fight against --- but in my games, those guys are way more skilled then the rest of the team. Dudes on the way to plat not a bunch of gutter punks trying to eek out our 56% win rates.
If silver want to climb, play the odds and take every advantage the house throws at you.
I used to care about KDA, now I care about CS and Objectives.
VexRoth wrote:
Hi Psiguard, so how do you figure out if you are good with a champion? And why Mid as secondary?
For me, the champions I'm good with are either practiced a lot or I have some affinity with them. By affinity, I mean the way the champion plays (their power spikes, abilities, win conditions) feel natural to me and I can more easily identify what I need to do in different situations and how I can improve.
By contrast, champions I have little affinity with would be something like
Vladimir for me. He just feels like a stat-check champion to me and I don't really know how to carry games with him. It just doesn't make as much sense as someone like Malphite or Renekton to me.Usually success is a good indicator of affinity, but you should be able to tell whether you like a champion just by playing a few games of them imo. It can be in normals or whatever.
Also worth noting is you can become good at a champion that you suck at at first. My main last season was
Rek'Sai and I lost my first 5 games I ever played as her (while she was OP). It took me a little while to figure out how to manage my tunnel cooldowns and ultimate mostly.I put mid as your secondary since you mentioned you felt more comfortable there than top. It's also a fairly contested role (unlike support) so you'll still get jungle fairly often.
Thanks to Minho for the sig!
Ixtellor wrote:
STATEMENT TOO LONG TO QUOTE
You know what? He's right. That's Bronze-low Gold. Any **** can happen and you can get away with it. I see
Volibear as a jungler and support more than a top laner. People say I am stupid when I play solo lane Lulu and jungle/mid/top Quinn. Darius is almost a permaban in this elo. I even ban Illaoi because I know that my teammates will fight within her zone and she will get a triple/quadra kill, and they still repeat it. They never learn.And that's low elo.
Thanks The_Nameless_Bard for the sig!
This argument is stupid.
"In Silver/Bronze everybody focuses the squishy and they get no peel"
Firstly, yeah, that's true but it's also true FOR BOTH TEAMS so the point is irrelevant. Both ADCs can die before they do any damage and if they don't, you're just a ****ty midlane assassin/jungler. Either that or they're playing something like Kalista or Sivir which brings up the next point.
That being ADCS CAN PEEL FOR THEMSELVES. ITS CALLED BEING A MOBILE ADC. IF YOURE IN SILVER YOU UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT.
(I think it happens in higher Elos a fair bit too, unless they only play like, Kogmaw.)
"In Silver/Bronze everybody focuses the squishy and they get no peel"
Firstly, yeah, that's true but it's also true FOR BOTH TEAMS so the point is irrelevant. Both ADCs can die before they do any damage and if they don't, you're just a ****ty midlane assassin/jungler. Either that or they're playing something like Kalista or Sivir which brings up the next point.
That being ADCS CAN PEEL FOR THEMSELVES. ITS CALLED BEING A MOBILE ADC. IF YOURE IN SILVER YOU UNDERSTAND THIS CONCEPT.
(I think it happens in higher Elos a fair bit too, unless they only play like, Kogmaw.)
Basically MOBAFire.
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VexRoth is a silver V player with a losing record and probably about to be demoted to bronze.
In bronze league, peel isn't usually a thing. And since your ELO is a true reflection of ability, being in bronze/silver by definition means you are bad (no offense, im bad too).
So when you prime ADC in bronze, you are on an island while simultaneously being priority target #1 for the enemy.
So what happens when the zed/xin/vi (insert any gap closer or willing to flash champion) goes all in on you... you either have to beat them 1v1 or die. I have yet to meet a Silver ADC that I can't kill 1v1.
Playing a brusier means you can 1v1 + be tanky. At Vynertje's level, ADC's get tons of support and peel so of course they can kick butt. Down in the trenches where more than 80% of players live ADC is the most dangerous profession. Now of course if a Plat player smurfs and plays ADC its a different issue.
But show me a Silver ADC and ill Show you a dead ADC.
Lastly, I just looked at the MMR of the top players in the world --- the top 20 Udyr's have a higher rating than the best Draven in the world.