Veteran player getting back into LoL S3, what...

[quote=Searz][quote=drakon136] [quote=Searz] Please add something of substance next time. We already have plenty of shit posts like this in the thread, we don't need more. [/quote]No point adding anything of substance when I'd only be repeating what others have said. Besides, you wouldn't care and would just insult me anyway.[/quote] Good, because you'd just post idiotic shit anyways. See? This goes both ways. You can make rude assumptions about me and I can do the same about you.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]Look, if you want to argue with every pro out there, go ahead. There is not a single pro player who actually builds runaan's in a game that matters. It just shows how naïve you are to ignore (1) what ever pro out there does and (2) what has been said by experienced players in about 15 pages.[/quote]

[quote=Meiyjhe][quote=Vynertje] Look, if you want to argue with every pro out there, go ahead. There is not a single pro player who actually builds runaan's in a game that matters. It just shows how naïve you are to ignore (1) what ever pro out there does and (2) what has been said by experienced players in about 15 pages. [/quote] Tbh, the only thing I think Searz wanted was a legit argument why Runaans is sub-optimal instead of: "The pros don't use it" or "Its a bad item" or "ur such a jerk and u dont listen to us" Which is actually quite understandable that he doesnt want those "arguments" ;P[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=Meiyjhe] [quote=Vynertje] Look, if you want to argue with every pro out there, go ahead. There is not a single pro player who actually builds runaan's in a game that matters. It just shows how naïve you are to ignore (1) what ever pro out there does and (2) what has been said by experienced players in about 15 pages. [/quote] Tbh, the only thing I think Searz wanted was a legit argument why Runaans is sub-optimal instead of: "The pros don't use it" or "Its a bad item" or "ur such a jerk and u dont listen to us" [/quote] [h1]HERE YOU GO[/h1] [quote=Vynertje] [quote=Searz] [quote=Vynertje] Your proposed build would lack DPS on anyone who has no inbuilt form of damange increase (like vayne). Even then, it would lack single-target DPS.[/quote] How many times do I need to write it? This is SPECIFIC TO CAITLYN. I doubt work well with any other champion except for [i]possibly[/i] Varus. [/quote] Do the math. Caitlyn DPS with a standard build: 55% crit chance, let's say she crits 900 and 500 after armor reduction. Including headshots and attack speed this would make about ~800dps. (~1500 before armor reduction) Your build has about 300 ad, 0 crit chance. You get about 2.0 attack speed and you have headshot every 3rd hit. Even if you'd hit twice every second (which is impossible because of kiting restrictions) that would be 600*1.5 + (300x0.33*1.5) = 1050 dps. Before armor reductions. This is assuming you hit one bolt all the time. [/quote] [quote=GrandmasterD] [[Runaan's Hurricane]] is a decent item but all alternatives give you more damage. The alternatives being: [[Phantom Dancer]], [[Statikk Shiv]], [[Blade of the Ruined King]], [[Trinity Force]]. Yes I know hurricane is cheaper than all of them, however an AD carry wants to itemize for late-game and therefore you buy the items which scale best. Second, an AD carry is about high sustained single-target dps and not about hitting as many targets as possible. On top of all this, Runaan's doesn't provide any movement speed which is also a huge drawback. [/quote] [quote=Vynertje] Overall the stats given by Shiv are a lot better than Runaan's. The passive might be 'worse' (it can crit though) but the strength of an item is not only defined by the passive. An item that gives attack speed and nothing but attack speed is overall quite bad (any adc wants a balance between AD, AS and Crit). Besides that, the item is [b]WORTHLESS[/b] until you have the full item completed. The recipe (flat attack speed) is shit. And then there is the argument that you won't hit all two bolts all the time. Problem is, for any ADC, there is a 6-item core which cannot be changed. One item is [[infinity edge]] and the other core is [[last whisper]]. These two items cannot be dropped. Then you have the lifesteal items like BT and BotrK - you cannot replace any of these two for a non-lifesteal item. And then you need some form of attack speed and crit (unless you are a caster type of adc, then you get [[trinity force]]) to balance your build out which is [[statikk shiv]] or [[phantom dancer]]. And then you need a defensive item and boots. There is no room for [[runaan's hurricane]]. PS: I do speak from experience and not just theory crafting and what pro's told everyone. I did play with [[runaan's hurricane]] on [[varus]] for some time but it gets outclassed by everything. Even if you get Ruined King - Runaan's and max W second for all the on hit damage, it is still a quite bad item. [/quote] These are just a couple of random examples I picked out from these 150+ comments.[/quote]

[quote=Meiyjhe][quote=Vynertje] These are just a couple of random examples I picked out from these 150+ comments. [/quote] I didn't say the arguments weren't already given. Just repeating stuff like: [quote]"The pros don't use it" or "Its a bad item" or "ur such a jerk and u dont listen to us"[/quote] Isn't going to help anyone. Why would you even repeat it if all the necessary info is given? Searz reads his threads.[/quote]

[quote=drakon136]I'm bored so I decided to post anyway. Did the maths comparing the average DPS of [[The Bloodthirster]]-[[Infinity Edge]]-[[Last Whisper]]-[[Berserker's Greaves]]-[[Phantom Dancer]] versus [[The Bloodthirster]]-[[Infinity Edge]]-[[Last Whisper]]-[[Berserker's Greaves]]-[[Runaan's Hurricane]]. Fair warning, the numbers are probably around 100 lower than they should be, but I'm too lazy to redo it all. [spoiler=Ignoring armor and Caitlyn's passive]BT-IE-[b]PD[/b]-LW-GR= 925.010375 single target, 0 AOE = 925.010375 DPS BT-IE-[b]RH[/b]-LW-GR= 754.50375 single target, 0 / 274.36500 / 548.73 AOE = 754.50375 / 1028.86875 / 1303.23375 DPS[/spoiler] As you can see, you get more overall damage output with Runaan's Hurricane if you are hitting at least one other target with a bolt. However, you won't always be able to hit a champion with the bolts, if the bolts hit anything at all. If the bolts prioritized champions (or if the bolts could crit), it would be much better, and I would actually consider it over Phantom Dancer. However, as it can hit minions and monsters, it is far more unreliable than the standard build.[/quote]

[quote=astrolia][quote=Vynertje] Look, if you want to argue with every pro out there, go ahead. There is not a single pro player who actually builds runaan's in a game that matters. It just shows how naïve you are to ignore (1) what ever pro out there does and (2) what has been said by experienced players in about 15 pages. [/quote] Yellowpete's Razer video guide before had Hurricane on Varus, but I don't remember if it was in a game that mattered. :p[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=astrolia] [quote=Vynertje] Look, if you want to argue with every pro out there, go ahead. There is not a single pro player who actually builds runaan's in a game that matters. It just shows how naïve you are to ignore (1) what ever pro out there does and (2) what has been said by experienced players in about 15 pages. [/quote] I dunno, yellowpete's Razer video guide before had Hurricane on Varus. [/quote] He indeed ran it in the past, but he shifted away from it because it proved to be sub-optimal (I asked him that a couple of months ago on stream). I got the idea from him and I did some testing myself as well, but it doesn't work out exactly as planned. To be more precise, he never built the item in all of the LCS games he played varus (which was quite a lot)[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Vynertje] Do the math. Caitlyn DPS with a standard build: 55% crit chance, let's say she crits 900 and 500 after armor reduction. Including headshots and attack speed this would make about ~800dps. (~1500 before armor reduction) Your build has about 300 ad, 0 crit chance. You get about 2.0 attack speed and you have headshot every 3rd hit. Even if you'd hit twice every second (which is impossible because of kiting restrictions) that would be 600*1.5 + (300x0.33*1.5) = 1050 dps. Before armor reductions. This is assuming you hit one bolt all the time.[/quote] Yeah... I think it's best I do the math.. AS boots and Mercurial Scimitar on all builds(cuz Sirell). Including relevant masteries and AD quints. (ArP is exluded because it's the same for all builds) (15825gold) Zephyr+BT+LW+Hurricane: single target damage: 347.75AD * 1.0833passive * (0.625baseAS * 3.16AS) = 744.02 DPS 2-target damage: (10 + 347.75 * 0.5 + 347.75 * 1.125) * (0.625 * 3.16) = 1135.81 DPS 3-target damage: (10 + 347.75 + 347.75 * 1.1667) * (0.625 * 3.16) = 1507.85 DPS (16175gold) BT+BT+LW+Hurricane: single target damage: 422.75 * 1.0833 * (0.625 * 2.62) = 749.9 DPS 2-target damage: (10 + 422.75 * 0.5 + 422.75 * 1.125) * (0.625 * 2.62) = 1141.29 DPS 3-target damage: (10 + 422.75 + 422.75 * 1.1667) * (0.625 * 2.62) = 1516.28 DPS (16700gold) IE+PD+BT+LW: single target damage: (392.75 * 0.45non-crit + 392.75 * 2.5CrD * 0.55CrC + 392.75 * 0.0833passive) * (0.625 * 2.46) = 1152.33 DPS (passive doesn't scale with crit) You lose ~35% singletarget damage against one target, but you deal ~32% more damage against three enemies and about the same damage against two enemies. One also needs to consider the fact that the items have other properties when weighing the options: (15825gold) Zephyr+BT+LW+Hurricane: +10%MS +10%CDR +35% CC reduction (16175gold) BT+BT+LW+Hurricane: +18%Life Steal (16700gold) IE+PD+BT+LW: +5%MS All in all I'd say it seems viable considering the cheaper cost, extra stats and high teamfight presence/great minion clear. (viable =! great) [quote=xIchi] Botrk is situational at best... at best.. I know you did not play LoL for a time, but even after the recent Botrk nerfs it is still there in most games.[/quote] Yeah, I don't know. I haven't payed much attention to it. Should I? It seemed fairly good, but the active has a bit of a short range compared to the range of Caitlyn. [quote]Your idea of tenacity was picked up by many other people, but tenacity does not help if you drop in 1> second.[/quote] Nigga please. Doin' it for the MS.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Meiyjhe] Tbh, the only thing I think Searz wanted was a legit argument why Runaans is sub-optimal instead of: "The pros don't use it" or "Its a bad item" or "ur such a jerk and u dont listen to us" Which is actually quite understandable that he doesnt want those "arguments" ;P[/quote] EXACTLY The Banana gets it. And no Vynertje, there has not been conclusive enough information to make a proper deduction before my rather extensive post about the damage dealt. Feel free to add your own analysis after having a look at my calculations. Edit: time for bed btw. So no more responses from me until tomorrow.[/quote]