Vynertje's Support AMA and advice thread

[quote=Vynertje][quote=Janitsu][[Ancient Coin]] is the "worst" support item for the ADC, but probably the best one for the lane if you aren't playing someone who gets in to the front line and does their stuff there.[/quote] Besides that being a non-factor, spellthief is just as 'bad'. [quote=sirell]^ But arguably [[talisman of ascension]] isn't, though.[/quote] Unarguably the best, actually.[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]If your champion has a heal/shield tho, [[ancient coin]] can be as good as [[relic shield]], which means you will most likely go for [[ancient coin]] so you can get an item advantage. My [[taric]] with [[ancient coin]] + 4 mana potions and heal max first is an example for that :D.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=NicknameMy]If your champion has a heal/shield tho, [[ancient coin]] can be as good as [[relic shield]], which means you will most likely go for [[ancient coin]] so you can get an item advantage. My [[taric]] with [[ancient coin]] + 4 mana potions and heal max first is an example for that :D.[/quote] Having a heal or shield is a non factor, stop talking shit[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]Also, doesn't [[Taric]] benefit more from health? [[imbue]] scales directly with it and the effectiveness of [[shatter]]'s armor on himself is increased by building it, so wouldn't you want [[righteous glory]]? Not sure that I really have a clue anymore though, so feel free to correct me if I'm entirely off base.[/quote]

[quote=Latest Legend][[Imbue]]: the heal is a lie. *flies away*[/quote]

[quote=NicknameMy]His heal has a very high mana cost, so without the mana of talisman you can't use it constantly, especially early. Also, heal/shields do matter, like explained in the lcs where they discussed it on the likes of [[alistar]].[/quote]

[quote=OTGBionicArm][quote=NicknameMy]His heal has a very high mana cost, so without the mana of talisman you can't use it constantly, especially early. Also, heal/shields do matter, like explained in the lcs where they discussed it on the likes of [[alistar]].[/quote] This assumes you need to use it often. [[Taric]]'s heal is not meant to keep people healthy. It's more of a trading buffer.[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard][quote=NicknameMy]His heal has a very high mana cost, so without the mana of talisman you can't use it constantly, especially early. Also, heal/shields do matter, like explained in the lcs where they discussed it on the likes of [[alistar]].[/quote]I'd think crucible would do more for fixing that than talisman ._.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje][quote=NicknameMy]His heal has a very high mana cost, so without the mana of talisman you can't use it constantly, especially early. Also, heal/shields do matter, like explained in the lcs where they discussed it on the likes of [[alistar]].[/quote] This is not a theorycrafting thread, please stop.[/quote]

[quote=Vynertje]Yo everyone, considering the recent questions on support itemization I figured I'd do a short write-up covering some of these questions more thoroughly. [h2]First of all: [[talisman of ascension]], why is it so good and who should pick it?[/h2] Talisman has always been a good item, the movement speed on the item was great and for most supports the gold income was already quite decent late game. The problem was: 1) The build path sucked 2) The active alone wasn't enough to warrant a clearly inferior build path I won't go through the exact changes, but essentially they increased the gold income on Coin by 50% and on Medallion and Talisman by 33%. They combined it with some QOL changes (including collection range and some active CDR) to make the item much more attractive. The low cooldown made the active even more appealing and the build no longer sucks. It's still the most 'passive' out of the 3 support items, but the gold generation is fine. Right now, I'd recommend starting [[ancient coin]] on the more reactive supports; [[janna]] and [[soraka]]. I still recommend [[spellthief's edge]] start on [[bard]], [[lulu]], [[nami]] and [[sona]] (unless playing certain terror matchups) but you usually want to swap that for [[talisman of ascension]] near completion of the laning phase. Other champions like [[thresh]], [[blitzcrank]] and [[alistar]] can choose to start both coin or [[relic shield]], but have other options for movement speed ([[righteous glory]]) as well and thus don't necessarily rush [[talisman of ascension]]. What you choose is a matter of preference. The final group of champions is those who don't really benefit from Talisman at all, not in lane nor in late game. Those are champions who benefit a lot from the (much more tanky option) [[face of the mountain]] and can't afford to sink 2.2k in an item without any defensive stats. They always get Glory for their movement speed needs. Those are: [[leona]], [[braum]] and [[nautilus]]. [h2][[zeke's harbinger]]: when is it a good buy?[/h2] I've already discussed the item a little bit with some preliminary thoughts, but I've had a chance to test the item a little bit more in recent days. First my thoughts on the balancing of the item: since it got changed (read: buffed) in 5.15 it's a bit better. It is still somewhat hard to proc reliably, but it's harder to completely fuck up the timing. That means that the item is definitely in a decent state right now. So, who should you buy it on? Let's start by discussing when first though. The item gives %-based buffs, which means it isn't as gold-effective early game. Especially if you're planning to use it for your ADC, it really is a late game item. This is because crit chance is a stat that requires multiplication through AD and AS to be effective. You can have 100% crit but if you only have 100 AD you'll still be hitting like Graves' splash gun. It's gonna be effective once your ADC hits 3+ items. Even more importantly: it's a luxury item. Your first priority as a support should be to facilitate your ADC to deal damage (read: keep him alive). This means you should only get it if there aren't any more important items for your team at that moment. Items like [[Locket of the iron solari]] vs multiple AP comps or [[Mikael's crucible]] vs hard CC should be prioritized if necessary. Now also keep in mind that there's a major difference between the different types of ADC's and supports. Someone like [[Jinx]] is going to benefit a whole lot from the item, whereas [[Ezreal]] is not at all. It's a great buy if you have some kind of autoattack-reliant carry but it's really poor for caster ADC's. Also look at the type of support you're buying it on: the stats are really well suited for someone like [[Janna]]/[[Lulu]]/[[Soraka]]/[[Nami]] but absolutely suck for [[Braum]]. In general: only get it on champions that actually benefit from AP. Also one final note on whether to use it on your AP or AD carry: I'd recommend using it on the champion with the highest DPS. That means that [[cassiopeia]], [[karthus]] or [[jinx]] are great champions to use it on, [[akali]] or [[corki]] not so much. Besides the higher damage buff, it also means that there's less chance you'll fuck up the timing![/quote]