Xypherous is a time ninja - He's at it again

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] @Searz: Because some champions [u]are[/u] OP - Like Irelia You're not recognizing that they're just too strong with it. Trinity is completely nailed in their builds. [/quote] Wait... Irelia's OP? If she was so good, why is she never first pick first ban (except maybe against SK, for Wickd) in high level games? She's used a little, but not that much. To be honest, for tanky DPS, I'd rate Lee Sin or Jax over her any day, when both of them don't have a Trinity Force nailed to their build, the former rushes atmogs, and the latter rushes Gunblade then Guinsoo's. The fact that Trinity is nailed to their built doesn't make them OP. Does the fact that Evelynn has a Trinity Force (or Lich Bane if she's AP) in her build make her OP? Irelia really isn't too strong with Trinity Force, and there aren't THAT many that are. You could have simpler said - "Nerf OP Mages that build deathcap", that's an extremely high percentage, but that doesn't mean the Deathcap makes the OP ones even more OP - that's the champion.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]Not being a top ban does not mean a champion doesn't need nerfs. Notable nerfs in the past include - [[Gragas]], and [[Alistar]] These two were technically overpowered for a long time and went COMPLETELY unnoticed in US. @Xenasis: It took an EU team dominating at DreamHack for the US playerbase to realize it. And this was AFTER Gragas received some nerfs (simultaneously with Locket removal) and Alistar was considered a bad pick because his rework was considered "dumb". Top Bans are a strong indicator of whose strong, but its not always absolute. It is always possible that a champion is overlooked. Top bans are often overpowered too, but not noticed because people are too focused on the bans. [[Irelia]] effectively turns into an RPG end-game boss once she's farmed up, and she can't be countered in lane. You have to rely on the player making mistakes, and in high-elo, that doesn't happen too often. How do you counter a champion who 'deals true-damage dps', 'self-sustains', 'blink-strike snowball', 'cc-punish you for hurting her', 'escape cc better then anyone else', and build almost full tank while dealing strong sustained damage? Answer: You cannot. She tanks all your damage, [[Equilibrium Strike]] cc's you while you're trying to deal said damage, sustains herself back up from any effective damage dealt with [[Hiten Style]] and [[Transcendent Blades]], blink-strikes onto your squishies, slices through your armor with [[Sheen]] procs + [[Hiten Style]] true damage, and shrugs off ALL your cc as if its nothing. Her issue is similar to on-release [[Jarvan IV]]. Far too much cannot-go-wrong utility on a single champion.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] [[Alistar]] These two were technically overpowered for a long time and went COMPLETELY unnoticed in US. @Xenasis: It took an EU team dominating at DreamHack for the US playerbase to realize it. [/quote] He wasn't unnoticed AT ALL. He had huge ratio buffs, a new passive just before Dreamhack. Shushei spotted that and abused his ratios, as he should. He ended up being a first pick/ban because Shushei had learned a champion in such a small space of time. Edit: Also, Gragas isn't overlooked either. He just fits on VERY specific team comps. Note how Shushei only really used Gragas with an Anivia and usually Ashe. [quote=JunSupport] Top Bans are a strong indicator of whose strong, but its not always absolute. It is always possible that a champion is overlooked. Top bans are often overpowered too, but not noticed because people are too focused on the bans. [[Irelia]] effectively turns into an RPG end-game boss once she's farmed up, and she can't be countered in lane. You have to rely on the player making mistakes, and in high-elo, that doesn't happen too often. How do you counter a champion who 'deals true-damage dps', 'self-sustains', 'blink-strike snowball', 'cc-punish you for hurting her', 'escape cc better then anyone else', and build almost full tank while dealing strong sustained damage? Answer: You cannot. She tanks all your damage, [[Equilibrium Strike]] cc's you while you're trying to deal said damage, sustains herself back up from any effective damage dealt with [[Hiten Style]] and [[Transcendent Blades]], blink-strikes onto your squishies, slices through your armor with [[Sheen]] procs + [[Hiten Style]] true damage, and shrugs off ALL your cc as if its nothing. Her issue is similar to on-release [[Jarvan IV]]. Far too much cannot-go-wrong utility on a single champion. [/quote] Though I'd usually agree the unnoticed part, the fact of the matter is, she's not unnoticed. Irelia was a top pick/ban a while ago, who got nerfed, and now she's not as good as she was. She isn't unnoticed at all either, Wickd, among others, plays her. Your little thing was a bit over-exadurated. "'deals true-damage dps', 'self-sustains', 'blink-strike snowball', 'cc-punish you for hurting her', 'escape cc better then anyone else'" As a quick example - Olaf has True damage, self sustain, punishes you for hurting him, has an awesome escape in his ult. The only thing he's missing is the blink - which Irelia doesn't truly have, since she has to dive to something or someone. You could say Olaf has ranged harass whilst Irelia doesn't, if you're being picky. Also, your "she can't be countered in lane" part is RIDICULOUS. You need to learn to counter her in lane. She's exactly like Vladimir was and still remains now. Early game she's a free kill, but at 7-9 you can't really push her out of a lane. She has no ranged harass, and a mage EASILY shuts her down. She can't farm without getting health either, and she needs to melee things or waste her ult to heal. She's very strong, but the fact that she's completely destroyed in lane if the player's good counteracts that. She only gets strong in lane when she gets level 6 AND a Sheen. She hits hard when farmed, what's new there? She can EASILY be countered in lane, and has a lot of utility.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Xenasis: You aren't reading my post properly are you? I said completely unnoticed in [u]US SERVERS[/u]. And clearly indicated they only got noticed [u]AFTER[/u] the Dreamhack tourney. >_> As for Olaf. Lacking a blink is exactly what makes him infinitely worse. That, and lack of hard-cc. A big deal. Olaf not having hard CC or a gap-closer makes him extremely easy to kite. That's why he's a subpar pick. You chose a horrible champion to compare Irelia with. Irelia does all that Olaf can do, except better. Her true damage scales with attack speed while Olaf's true damage is self-destructive and restricted to burst. Her sustain is a constant passive, not an active like Olaf's. Olaf can't STUN you for hurting him; that's how Irelia's E works. And Irelia's CC-reduction is on AT ALL TIMES as opposed to Olaf's which is on his ultimate and only avaliable for limited durations. Lastly, Irelia is not an easy kill early game. Where exactly is your evidence to support that? As I said - [i]"You have to rely on the player making mistakes, and in high-elo, that doesn't happen too often."[/i] Early game, she just has to sit back and farm creeps and avoid you until she's level3~5 and able to fight toe-to-toe. Not very hard to do. You want to fight? Too bad, the player isn't dumb, they just back off, make you pull minion aggro if you chase, and force you to back off. That's rudimentary in laning. It's not hard to do well with her in lane, and it's not easy to kill her in lane.[/quote]

[quote=PotatisFarfar]Problem with irelia is that her pre 6 is just terrible. And she can easy be shut down. She is strong yes. But there are heroes that are way more broken. (jax...) +Jun. Don't think xena said olaf is as good as irelia.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Potatis: I didn't say Xenasis said that. I was just indicating that [[Olaf]]'s lack of a blink (and hard cc) is EXACTLY why Olaf isn't comparable. I apologize for any misunderstandings. Irelia has what Olaf does not, and therefore ends up having virtually no weaknesses once farmed. Her early game is weak, but it's not impossible to work with. That's probably the ONLY thing bad about her and what keeps her from being a top pick right now (because a lot of people prefer to play easy early game champs), but it doesn't last long in the eyes of a good Irelia player. Also, please note, I'm not saying [[Irelia]] is as overpowered as AP Alistar. She's only slightly too strong. Similar to Poppy, who only gets ridiculous in late-game.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]THANK GOD I GO TO POST THIS INTERNET CUTS OUT. THANKFULLY STILL THERE. - I purposefully chose a terrible champion to compare Irelia with. Out of the 5 things you mentioned that apparently makes Irelia OP, Olaf fits 4 of them. I know Olaf isn't as good as Irelia, that's common knowledge, I'm just pointing out that if you think that those are what makes her so game-breakingly OP, then you're wrong. I doubt it's unnoticed on the US, since I know Elementz rated him super duper high on his tier list after the buffs - and they nerfed him the patch after dreamhack, and Alistar became popular before Dreamhack here in the EU, as I'd imagine AP Alistar did in the US. Elementz gave him a good wrap iirc anyway. My evidence to support Irelia's bad early game is - She has no ranged harass, she needs to commit herself for a kill She has barely any damage without Sheen. Sheen/Triforce is her only real source of damage. She needs her ult to get health back if she can't touch creeps True damage is negligible early game since everyone has barely any resistances anyway She needs to level her W for sustain, which makes her burst terrible, and therefore, she can't fight Where's your evidence to prove she has a good early game? If the player isn't dumb and backs off, as you said, then how does one avoid ranged harass? You can't simply walk back and miss all of your CS. If you do, you're already like 50 CS behind before you're level 6, and can sustain yourself. ANY mage destroys her in a lane early game. For example, slap a Brand against her, and she can't touch her creeps (and use this godlike sustain you talk of) without eating some harassment. Also, if "GOOD PLAYERS NEVER MAKE MISTAKES" is an argument - then why do some champions naturally win against others, and why do the lanes switch around in high level games, for fun? She needs to be passive until she gets her Sheen, which isn't level 3-5. Edit: Also, Poppy's OP? WAT?![/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Xenasis: -sigh- None of thsoe things individually make her OP. It's the fact she has all of those components together that make her too strong. -_- Try seriously answering this question: [quote=JunSupport]How do you counter a champion who 'deals true-damage dps', 'self-sustains', 'blink-strike snowball', 'cc-punish you for hurting her', 'escape cc better then anyone else', and build almost full tank while dealing strong sustained damage?[/quote] @"why do some champions naturally win against others" reponse: Because the other person was more skilled. It's not about making no mistakes. It's about how they make so few mistakes, that they achieve more then they lose. Mistakes don't automatically mean you've ruined your game for your team. You lose a specific flat value. For example: Blowing a summoner spell (mainly [[Flash]]) when a jungler ganks. You lose that summoner spell for the duration of its cooldown. That IS a loss, as a jungler can visit you any time during the cooldown and you are now forced to play more passively. But suppose you also killed your lane opponent 2 times before then. AND once more after the jungler ganked. That means you lost your summoner spell. But you're still ahead. This was a crude example, but that's basically how high-elo gameplay works: You do well by capitalizing on good decisions and enemy mistakes decisively, so that your acquired achievements outweigh and compensate for later mistakes. Lastly, AP Poppy's getting nerfed some time in the future. Old news. :P Poppy has the same issue. She's "acceptably" weak early game. But once she's fed, she reached OP levels of damage output. Being able to dive in a group of 5 enemies and take down one target from 100% to 0% while denying the other 4 any room to counter is OP. (More so, if the other 4 attempt to attack her, she absorbs all their damage and cc without batting an eyelash) This is kind of obvious.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]I've told you how to counter Irelia before. Destroy her in lane with someone like Brand. Her early game is horrendous, if you can counter her early you win, like old TF. It's not a case of "Irelia's OP", it's just you need to learn to counter her by sending appropriate counter picks to destroy her early game. She doesn't get to that status if you leave her top lane to farm all day and feed her - like any champion. She snowballs pretty well - but she shouldn't have the chance to snowball. Think like Tryndamere, he's so UP it isn't even funny. If he's fed, he's a force to be reckoned with, but any decent player doesn't let Tryndamere touch the creeps to farm, and he can't get health back, just like Irelia. The points you mentioned are also on a lot of tanky DPS. Maybe not the true damage part, but Wukong would be a good comparison. If people truly are more skilled - why did HotshotGG, as NIDALEE (pre-nerf), go mid from top, when Nid's best top - and he's arguably the most skilled player in the game as his favourite champion. Nidalee's usually a permaban against CLG for that reason. This was at the IEM (maybe Dreamhack, I forget), forgot the match but I can dig it out if you don't believe me. Champions naturally counter other champions. That's a fact. The skilled player can get an edge, but if they're always at a disadvantage. @Poppy How do you let an apparently weak champion get fed?... As I mentioned before, she's like Tryndamere. Anyway, Exhaust her or flash away. The room to counter is when she ults you. After she's ulted you, you wait for it to go out by using escape skills/summoners, then destroy her when it's over since most build glass cannon. New news for me - I'm from Europe.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Xenasis: Again. It's the fact she has ALL the features together. Not just a few, or a couple. Every. Single. One. Together. All other tanky dps lack one or two features, which makes them balanced. And to "Destroy her in lane", "turtling". What's the stop Irelia from turtling, last-hitting to farm at her tower, and making it impossible to shut her down? Saying the counter is to shut her down in lane is a one-sided method. It's based on the assumption that you're automatically BETTER then the person playing Irelia. That's an invalid way to solve a balance issue in a strategic MOBA from my perspective. Being better isn't a justifiable counter. What if the Irelia beats you in lane? DERP, the master plan is ruined. And you really don't seem to get it about getting farmed up. These champions are overpowered because they don't need to get fed, only farmed. Getting fed implies they surpass you in levels and gold because you got several kills. That's not the issue here. These champions can farm minions and stay at the same level as you while exchanging kills, and at a certain point, their builds just make them simply more powerful. That's why they're overpowered. [color=#00ff00]They can be the same level, with relatively the same amount of gold value in items, but surpass you in combat power when it comes to mid or late game.[/color] Poppy (and Irelia) are not overpowered because they can get fed. It's the fact that once they finish 3~4 items in their build - They can no longer be stopped - Game Over This can be achieved just by diligently farming and turtling even in games that seem lost. There is no counter because they can just avoid you, farm up, then kill you later. And that just snowballs into them winning every following battle, and winning the game if played competently.[/quote]