Who IS the best offtank in the game?

[quote=DuffTime]*Sigh* Mmmkay too tired to do point counter point right now, lol. So I'll just absent mindedly splurge. Cho's still a fantastic jungler... He was never chosen for counter jungle prowess, tbh, counter jungling is a fake concept. If a champ can jungle your side, then it can also jungle their side, and when you see them ganking, you just sneak over and do it. That's all counter jungling has ever been. Cho ganks are phenomenal, objective control is godlike, clear speed is incredible... Shall I go on? Mechanically he's a Godsend for the jungle, and all the powerhouse junglers from before are still good. TLDR; Cho is as good at jungling as ever. The problem is that a new CLASS of jungler has emerged as top top, and Cho, Udyr, Shyvanna, etc, are not in it. Now, Shaco, Mao, Ramm, etc, ganky type with a decent clear speed, those are the kinds of jungles who seem to taking #1 seat.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Nighthawk] He's still completely melee, no matter how much you have a shield and a bunch of steroids. [/quote] That's irrelevant. Renekton is one of the best solo tops in the game, EASILY, and he's completely melee. The golem/wraith argument works with any jungler - by the way. Feast isn't Consume. It's meant for stealing buffs, mainly.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Xenasis] That's irrelevant. Renekton is one of the best solo tops in the game, EASILY, and he's completely melee. [/quote] Ren sucks dick as a solo. I'll shit on him with anything. :P[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=Xenasis] [quote=Nighthawk] He's still completely melee, no matter how much you have a shield and a bunch of steroids. [/quote] That's irrelevant. Renekton is one of the best solo tops in the game, EASILY, and he's completely melee. The golem/wraith argument works with any jungler - by the way. Feast isn't Consume. It's meant for stealing buffs, mainly. [/quote] ah wat? Ren gets shutdown by Armor runes...like a boss. If you don't take armor runes vs Ren...well gl getting to high elo. Not even talking about Feast (which is great for taking dragon too), he clears camps in 1 rupture + e. And sure that argument can be made for anyone, but Cho does it extremely well, even healing off of it. That's also why Nunu is a lot higher in jungle tiers now, and why he is viable in high elo now.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Mmmmmyep Renekton sucks lol.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=DuffTime] *Sigh* Mmmkay too tired to do point counter point right now, lol. So I'll just absent mindedly splurge. Cho's still a fantastic jungler... He was never chosen for counter jungle prowess, tbh, counter jungling is a fake concept. If a champ can jungle your side, then it can also jungle their side, and when you see them ganking you just sneak over and do it. Ganks are phenomenal, objective control is godlike, clear speed is incredible... Shall I go on? Mechanically he's a Godsend for the jungle, and all the powerhouse junglers from before are still good. TLDR; Cho is as good at jungling as ever. The problem is that a new CLASS of jungler has emerged as top top, and Cho, Udyr, Shyvanna, etc, are not in it. Now, Shaco, Mao, Ramm, etc, ganky type with a decent clear speed, those are the kinds of jungles who seem to taking #1 seat. [/quote] I'd completely disagree. Counter jungling is completely existent. Take Shaco/Mao/Nunu as fast examples. Shaco can set up boxes and kill people in their own jungle whilst he safely takes their creeps. No other jungler can do that. Mao has a ranged scout in his E, and a quick, powerful burst if he finds people in their jungle. Nunu has Consume. That's about good enough of an argument as it is. Cho wasn't picked for counter jungling, I'd agree. Udyr is (was?) picked for his speed/control. However, if Bear Stance was removed from the game, even though he was picked for speed/control, the fact he practically can't gank is a HUGE flaw. Cho's sustain is practically moot now, too. Cho's got far from phenomenal ganks. His Q is all he really has. Any other jungler with a targetted CC or charge (or both) is better. Cho's control is good, I'd agree, though as I mentioned, it's worse in the new jungle. Cho's speed is decent, but isn't anything to write home about when compared to other junglers. His speed falls off the later it gets, too, like Rammus but to a lesser extent. A new sort of class has emerged, I'd agree with that, but I'd say Cho isn't one of them. The [b]main[/b] criteria nowadays is (not in any order) - Dueling oriented control Speed Ganks Path/Build (as Stonewall calls it) Taking Shaco as an example - He can duel because of his boxes and R, one of the best invades in the game (if not the best) due to Q and boxes Fast because of boxes Godlike ganks Can go almost any route and needs no items to jungle (due to boxes, mainly) Taking Cho as an example - Can't duel that well, bad invade Pretty fast Decent ganks Can go almost any route Only having 2/4 of the criteria really isn't good. Shaco fills all 4. Of course these aren't the only factors, but that's my two cents on the subject.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Nighthawk] ah wat? Ren gets shutdown by Armor runes...like a boss. If you don't take armor runes vs Ren...well gl getting to high elo. Not even talking about Feast (which is great for taking dragon too), he clears camps in 1 rupture + e. And sure that argument can be made for anyone, but Cho does it extremely well, even healing off of it. That's also why Nunu is a lot higher in jungle tiers now, and why he is viable in high elo now. [/quote] You could use that argument for any AD champion. The fact of the matter is you need to take specific runes to counter him. Have fun keeping your mana up using half of your mana to clear one camp. The only, ONLY reason Nunu is viable now is because he can one shot Wraith with Q again. Nothing more.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I'm really too tired to do this, and it's difficult to convince a person they're wrong when they've got their mind made up, so this may be my final response. (Pardon any bad attitude if I have one, it was a loooong day at work.) However; Yes counter jungle is "Existent" because the jungle is just open space and you manipulate it to your own advantage. You ignored my point, you only really do it when ganks are going on, so it doesn't matter if you're "Good" at it, being good at counter jungling is fucking useless. "Cho's got far from phenomenal ganks. His Q is all he really has. Any other jungler with a targetted CC or charge (or both) is better." If you land pop up, and get a feast, 100% kill. No excuse not to get the kill. That's ganking power, like it or not, it's okay to be in denial of obvious fact. Targetted CC's are great, but so is hundreds of burst damage, a pop up, a slow, and a silence. Cho's jungle speed gets faster as he goes, proof to my previous conception that you're a bad jungle Cho. Your build probably sucks, and with a statement like his speed falls off, when his speed clearly gets faster, I am guessing you probably don't even level E first. Just guessing, however. "A new sort of class has emerged, I'd agree with that, but I'd say Cho isn't one of them." Derrr that's what I said. I grouped Udyr, Shyv, and Cho together. "Taking Shaco as an example - He can duel because of his boxes and R, one of the best invades in the game (if not the best) due to Q and boxes Fast because of boxes Godlike ganks Can go almost any route and needs no items to jungle (due to boxes, mainly)" Yes, hence he's tier 1 jungle right now. "Taking Cho as an example - Can't duel that well, bad invade Pretty fast Decent ganks Can go almost any route" No, which is why you continue to prove you don't understand the champ you continue to comment about. Can duel well, in fact he excells in 1v1's. Very fast jungle, lightning fast. Really good ganks. Phenomenal ganks. Can go literally any route and end up with full HP. Hmmm. We're not talking about the same Cho are we? What gear and runes do you use. I can almost guarantee your build and skilling order is wrong just by the kinds of statements you're making.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Xenasis] The only, ONLY reason Nunu is viable now is because he can one shot Wraith with Q again. Nothing more. [/quote] He's also gear independent, highly mobile, good at ganking, and can just wander about consuming the big creeps and leaving enemy junglers starved while he disrupts lanes. Then, because he isn't gear dependent, he can build support items, shurelya's, aegis, etc.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Just gonna +rep Duff cause I don't want to make a long ass post again, but everything he says is right. Also Shaco can't instantly invade like say, Nunu. He's a terrible invade in the respect that you HAVE to setup perfectly and if you don't you wasted your time.[/quote]