Who IS the best offtank in the game?

[quote=DuffTime]Well Shaco is kindof a beast invasion... Sometimes you can just show up and work it out...[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Yeah...but more likely if you're not pro you end up putting boxes that do nothing and wasting your time...[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]I could say the same about you for having your mind made up. Also, +repping someone for convincing yourself that you're right is silly, Nighthawk. The Cho build I'd likely use for jungling - Max E first, W second Boots + Pots, maybe GP10 depending on situation, Wit's End, maybe Frozen heart, situational. Runes - AS or MrP marks, quints would vary on opposition. Mr/Level blues, armour seals. "Very fast jungle, lightning fast." Fast. Not lightning fast. Yes, his speed gets faster as he goes. So does everyone else, though, but to a higher extent. "Really good ganks. Phenomenal ganks." Dear god no. His ganks are good at best. His Q is all he has. Please try and explain to me why Cho would be a better ganker than, say, GP or Jarvan, two random junglers I thought of on the spot. Landing a Q and Feast does usually mean a kill, though people won't let you stroll up to them, silence and feast them. Before you say knock up, it's easily avoided and flash is a perfect counter. If he lands it and is close, it's usually a kill. He's rarely going to meet a player bad enough to walk into it all the time though. "Can go literally any route and end up with full HP." So can most junglers now. This is nothing special. Cho has a LOT of sustain, but sustain's far less relevant in this jungle. "Can duel well, in fact he excells in 1v1's." He can duel well solo top, over a large period of time, I'd agree. Cho is one of my few decent solo top champions. It's one of the reasons he's practically unbeatable in lane if the player's good. You can't simply whittle them down in the jungle, though. If you're not fast at killing them, you WILL be caught with your pants down by the enemy team, especially since everyone walks around with full health now. A Lee Sin using Q to get to the target, then killing them with his burst, is far quicker than a Cho slowly walking to someone and hitting them repeatedly, not to mention the fact he has no slow without red. I'll admit Cho's pathing/building is ridiculously good. One of the best in the game, but that's about it as far as I'm concerned. He's good, but not excelling at anything else.# I don't feel Cho should be grouped with Shyvana and Udyr, either. Cho is far different than the other two (though the other two are pretty similar) As for Nunu - He did all of that before. It's the fact that he can now one shot the big Wraith again as to why he's viable in high elo games now. I should have specified now rather than before, not just NOW that's it. Edit: Oh, and @Nighthawk Boxes aren't the only thing in your arsenal. You can appear/disappear to/from nowhere with your Q, for example. Something other junglers can't do.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]Xenasis... Please stop contradicting yourself. It makes your argument a lot worse then it should be... Not that I agree with your opinion anyways.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=Nighthawk] contradicting yourself. [/quote] [citation needed][/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=xenasis]Yes, his speed gets faster as he goes. So does everyone else, though, but to a higher extent.[/quote] [quote=xenasis]His speed falls off the later it gets, too, like Rammus but to a lesser extent.[/quote] Also, I have a couple of things to add. Most junglers can't take boots/alternative item paths and still have as smooth a jungling as they would get with their main item. Udyr is one of them who can start boots and still have pretty good hp. But not like Cho, who walks out of jungle with full hp. Amumu and Nunu both can't do standard routes with a boots/ruby crystal start (or sapphire crystal i think it's called for mana). As for Cho, well how are cho's ganks any worse then let's say Jarvan's? Targeted knockup at medium range vs targeted knockup at long range. Slow vs Silence, and an ult that traps people vs an ult with amazing burst damage (and cho also has a good slow on q)? Cho is even a better ganker then GP because of his long range. Also i'm not sure you realize just how big the knockup target is, and how even in high elo play a cho knockup is pretty hard to avoid.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]The delayed response makes flashing a pop up pretty easy. But my Q for your flash is still a good trade in my book.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=xenasis]Yes, his speed gets faster as he goes. So does everyone else, though, but to a higher extent.[/quote] [quote=xenasis]His speed falls off the later it gets, too, like Rammus but to a lesser extent.[/quote] Both of these are true. Everyone gets faster as they go. EVERYONE. Cho gets slightly faster, but not nearly as fast as other champions do. "Most junglers can't take boots/alternative item paths and still have as smooth a jungling as they would get with their main item." Yes they can. "Amumu and Nunu both can't do standard routes with a boots/ruby crystal start" Nunu can, he used to start with Boots, 1 pot and a ward in the old jungle and come out fine, Amumu can't but he's really not picked for his jungling. "As for Cho, well how are cho's ganks any worse then let's say Jarvan's? Targeted knockup at medium range vs targeted knockup at long range. Slow vs Silence, and an ult that traps people vs an ult with amazing burst damage (and cho also has a good slow on q)?" Jarvan's QE combo = far faster knock up, much harder to avoid. Jarvan has a dash. Cho doesn't. Dashes make or break junglers for ganking. Jarvan has a slow in case he misses his Q knock up or is flashed away from Jarvan's ult does damage and traps people for far more damage whilst they're trapped, Cho's does one. Cho's Q slow is negligible, and easily avoided. Also, Cho's Q is EASY to avoid, at every elo range. Large range but easy to avoid, takes too long to come up.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Yeah if the Cho is garbage, it's easy as pie to dodge it. Going is circles is fun, but I'd rather do it at a merry-go-round. TLDR; for the thread, Xenasis doesn't think Cho is as good at jungling as we do. We think he's pretty damn good at it. The end.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=DuffTime] Yeah if the Cho is garbage, it's easy as pie to dodge it. [/quote] It has a timer, even if the Cho is good, champions with a blink, Flash, or any fast moving ability (E.G. pounce/tumble) can dodge it no matter where it is.[/quote]