GrandmasterD wrote:
Agreed. Even if they were added for replayablility, it's kind of a bad tool to actually create that. I hate most TD games for being overly complex as well. It needs to be straightforward and simple. A 2D TD game I really enjoy playing at times is Vector TD. Some of the maps are tough as **** too.
It's funny, because that's a perfect example of damage modifiers done right. That game has a bunch of other problems, but it's a lot better than You and MazeBert at least.
The most prominent problems I can point out right away would be the interest system and that it doesn't indicate the range of the upgraded towers when you build the level 1 tower. The interest system promotes passive play and is real easy to abuse. It's a bad system.
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"uh, I identify as counterstrike and I find this globally offensive" - ???
"uh, I identify as counterstrike and I find this globally offensive" - ???
Searz wrote:
It's funny, because that's a perfect example of damage modifiers done right. That game has a bunch of other problems, but it's a lot better than You and MazeBert at least.
The most prominent problems I can point out right away would be the interest system and that it doesn't indicate the range of the upgraded towers when you build the level 1 tower. The interest system promotes passive play and is real easy to abuse. It's a bad system.
Yep the interest system isn't great, I agree. However the damage modifiers are well-implemented and overall I find it an enjoyable, interesting, and challenging game.
Searz: That's the natural zoom level of the map. You can zoom out with a -zoom x function. Flaws, like I said, design is not a strong point of mine. The modifiers are the same as LoL except with different names, if you think about it. Because creeps drop items in the game, and towers have specific stats (for example, Book Tower that gains experience on hit), if you build that tower, you're going to want to have attack speed, so want an attack speed item in your inventory. Or, perhaps you've built Buried Soul, which does a lot of magic damage - you'll want a spell damage item.
Then the oils. When oils drop, you use it on a tower to increase the stats permanently. This promotes a "carry" tower style of play. For instance, Buried Soul has only a percentage chance to do that lot of magic damage - so you could apply a Tear of the Gods (legendary oil) to the tower to increase trigger (luck) chance + more.
The tower research (element choice research) is like that due to the confines of Warcraft III. To be fair, there is a "?" button there for people who don't know what's going on. Basically you choose as many elements as you want to research in order to get the towers. If you choose Astral, you'll get a lot of experience-gain sort of towers. If you choose Nature, your towers will have a lot of flat attack damage and crit chance. If you choose Iron, you'll get towers with item find chance and gold gen.
When picking your builder, you only have a few options as you unlock new builders as you level up. You pick a builder based on the style of play you want to try. For instance, you may choose the Blademaster (increased multicrit, crit damage, crit strike) and pair this with choosing the Nature element in order to capitialise on crit.
You can also access a free tower to build that can check the range. When you build a tower and click on the star, the tower's stats are revealed, as well as the range via a glowing ring.
I wish I could explain more to you, but it's clear you won't listen to me about the game as you've already formed an opinion.
Plants vs Zombies: Mindless.
Nature's Call: Will try it out. But just because it's obvious what to do, doesn't make it a great game. If you've never played Solitaire before (or any game for that matter), it's not going to be obvious what to do.
Tower Tournament: Will try it out.
VectorTD: Will try it out.
Nick: Yup, I think it's the latest version of GM that has it. It was on sale a while ago?
Then the oils. When oils drop, you use it on a tower to increase the stats permanently. This promotes a "carry" tower style of play. For instance, Buried Soul has only a percentage chance to do that lot of magic damage - so you could apply a Tear of the Gods (legendary oil) to the tower to increase trigger (luck) chance + more.
The tower research (element choice research) is like that due to the confines of Warcraft III. To be fair, there is a "?" button there for people who don't know what's going on. Basically you choose as many elements as you want to research in order to get the towers. If you choose Astral, you'll get a lot of experience-gain sort of towers. If you choose Nature, your towers will have a lot of flat attack damage and crit chance. If you choose Iron, you'll get towers with item find chance and gold gen.
When picking your builder, you only have a few options as you unlock new builders as you level up. You pick a builder based on the style of play you want to try. For instance, you may choose the Blademaster (increased multicrit, crit damage, crit strike) and pair this with choosing the Nature element in order to capitialise on crit.
You can also access a free tower to build that can check the range. When you build a tower and click on the star, the tower's stats are revealed, as well as the range via a glowing ring.
I wish I could explain more to you, but it's clear you won't listen to me about the game as you've already formed an opinion.
Plants vs Zombies: Mindless.
Nature's Call: Will try it out. But just because it's obvious what to do, doesn't make it a great game. If you've never played Solitaire before (or any game for that matter), it's not going to be obvious what to do.
Tower Tournament: Will try it out.
VectorTD: Will try it out.
Nick: Yup, I think it's the latest version of GM that has it. It was on sale a while ago?
So far I tried VectorTD and liked it, as it was indeed quite simple and easy to play. My only problem was that it was super easy to play (easy map, mind you) for the first 40 levels, where I was pretty much killing all the creeps with ease.
Then suddenly round 40 came around and the creeps were not dying to my towers. And of course I had been buying power ups with my bonus points until that point. Round 41 I found out that the minions cycle back through your maze if you don't kill them, which is a cool feature, but sucked a little - I guess I'm glad the next wave doesn't start until the previous wave is full completed.
So I got to level 46 before losing. I'm not sure why all the waves prior to 40 were super easy and then they got too hard to beat.
The only other thing I didn't like/wish was featured was a speed up button. Otherwise, a good TD, I'll certainly play it again and maybe try a different map.
Then suddenly round 40 came around and the creeps were not dying to my towers. And of course I had been buying power ups with my bonus points until that point. Round 41 I found out that the minions cycle back through your maze if you don't kill them, which is a cool feature, but sucked a little - I guess I'm glad the next wave doesn't start until the previous wave is full completed.
So I got to level 46 before losing. I'm not sure why all the waves prior to 40 were super easy and then they got too hard to beat.
The only other thing I didn't like/wish was featured was a speed up button. Otherwise, a good TD, I'll certainly play it again and maybe try a different map.
jhoijhoi wrote:
The modifiers are the same as LoL except with different names, if you think about it. [...] towers have specific stats (for example, Book Tower that gains experience on hit), if you build that tower, you're going to want to have attack speed, so want an attack speed item in your inventory. Or, perhaps you've built Buried Soul, which does a lot of magic damage - you'll want a spell damage item.
As I've stated from the start: unnecessary complications. It's funny that GMD posted a perfect example of damage modifiers done right. VectorTD does damage modifiers infinitely better than YouTD.
Quoted:
I wish I could explain more to you, but it's clear you won't listen to me about the game as you've already formed an opinion.
I could say the same about you, but that would devalue the conversation, so let's not say that about each other..
And you somehow seem to miss the fact that GMD is agreeing with my points about bad design..
Quoted:
Plants vs Zombies: Mindless.
No. Say it like it is: EASY.
But you clearly don't understand what I want you to take away from this: that PvZ has a lot of examples of good design.
Just to give an example: they make the zombies drop body-parts when they take damage, to indicate how damaged they are without the use of a health-bar. And when they get tougher they wear buckets that deform to indicate how damaged they are and then fall off and it's back to body-parts.
Quoted:
Nature's Call: Will try it out. But just because it's obvious what to do, doesn't make it a great game.
It's not obvious what to do for somebody who has never played a TD before, I meant that as a TD player or gamer in general really it was pretty obvious what I had to do. There is just one part of the start that I have a problem with: the fact that it doesn't summon your first worker automatically.
But the wave indicators are extremely clever(look around the edges of the map and click on the creeps) and there are loads of towers with cool effects, along with a system for moving towers and a nice zoomed out camera, so you get a much better overview of the map.
Point being (as it always has been) that unnecessary complications are bad design. And this map has far less of that than YouTD.
Quoted:
Tower Tournament: Will try it out.
This is a perfect example of simplicity when it comes to towers. There are just 10 towers total and they are all but one immediately obvious as to what they do.
In this TD it makes it clear that placement is KEY. The "map" is randomized every time you play along with the money you get and the towers you can use. So you have to adapt to a new scenario every time.
It's mainly a PvP game, but beating the par score should indicate that you're at least somewhat proficient at the game.
jhoijhoi wrote:
So far I tried VectorTD and liked it, as it was indeed quite simple and easy to play. My only problem was that it was super easy to play (easy map, mind you) for the first 40 levels, where I was pretty much killing all the creeps with ease.
Then suddenly round 40 came around and the creeps were not dying to my towers. And of course I had been buying power ups with my bonus points until that point. Round 41 I found out that the minions cycle back through your maze if you don't kill them, which is a cool feature, but sucked a little - I guess I'm glad the next wave doesn't start until the previous wave is full completed.
So I got to level 46 before losing. I'm not sure why all the waves prior to 40 were super easy and then they got too hard to beat.
The only other thing I didn't like/wish was featured was a speed up button. Otherwise, a good TD, I'll certainly play it again and maybe try a different map.
The easy maps are easy to get through but help you learn the game. The hard maps are just... god..
Searz: Everything you've said sounds fine. I do agree that indication of creeps getting stronger or getting hurt is good design (again, not something that could be incorporated into a WCIII map), and this is something I'd definitely consider if trying to make a game. As for TowerTournament, YouTD has a similar feature, wherein you can play Random mode and be given a range of random towers - the catch is, you can't upgrade them, so you're forced to continually change your towers when they get weak. It's a frustrating mode.
I have a question though: If YouTD was remade to be an app, or a game like VectorTD, with the opportunity to actually explain the steps and why they occur, would the game be better then? Your main complaints seem to be that the game is too complicated for a new player and it has unnecessary stats/modifiers. I'm just trying to get an idea of how I'd go about making a TD similar to YouTD, but without any of the "mistakes" it makes, so to say.
Nick: Mmm, I'll try a hard map sooner or later. Will play through Easy until I beat it, as I'm still not sure why I suddenly lost the game after round 40. It was as if the game got deliberately hard at that point.
Jack: Thanks! Pretty sure Bianca's just getting a bunch of her friends to upvote (like I'm trying to do), as her map is silly 8D And we only get one vote here, due to same IP, so at least now we have the two votes we should have got ^^
I have a question though: If YouTD was remade to be an app, or a game like VectorTD, with the opportunity to actually explain the steps and why they occur, would the game be better then? Your main complaints seem to be that the game is too complicated for a new player and it has unnecessary stats/modifiers. I'm just trying to get an idea of how I'd go about making a TD similar to YouTD, but without any of the "mistakes" it makes, so to say.
Nick: Mmm, I'll try a hard map sooner or later. Will play through Easy until I beat it, as I'm still not sure why I suddenly lost the game after round 40. It was as if the game got deliberately hard at that point.
Jack: Thanks! Pretty sure Bianca's just getting a bunch of her friends to upvote (like I'm trying to do), as her map is silly 8D And we only get one vote here, due to same IP, so at least now we have the two votes we should have got ^^
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Nick: You can directly export a GameMaster game to Android etc, so if you can code in GM, you can code an app. As for custom towers, that's not something offered in MazeBert. In YouTD you CAN script your own tower, but it has to be approved by the dev team and added to the game by them. The game is protected.
Oh that might be a GM8 or later feature because I kinda stuck with GM7 as I had a license for it and cba to get another one for GM8.
Modifiers are okay, but TWENTY? No. That is bad design, plain and simple.
The problem is that they're adding complications where there need not be any.
Agreed. Even if they were added for replayablility, it's kind of a bad tool to actually create that. I hate most TD games for being overly complex as well. It needs to be straightforward and simple. A 2D TD game I really enjoy playing at times is Vector TD. Some of the maps are tough as **** too.
What I'd really like to see is a simply map building system. Most TD Games which are created in the environment of another game, say Warcraft III, are not very user friendly and often complicated as ****.