B-Wong in no way, shape, or form added to either side of this arguement. His point was mix them together.
I am not fanboying anything, and am far beyond the age or maturity level to do so.
The 25 ArPen / 14% crit are runes only, not to be confused with the phrase 'without runes'. We know that ArPen goes up to 31 with talents, and crit goes to 16%. Your crit goes up to 24% with first item, we go itemless on ArPen end and get longsword to build brutalizer.
I have understood everything that you have said, you are ignoring parts of what I am saying. You pick out what you don't like and argue it. Stop. Listen to the whole thing.
Specific champs benefit more from crit% than others: Agreed. GP and Tryndamere are about the only ones though. Don't agree? Sorry, move on.
Everyone knows that you can crit an infinite number of times on a 1% chance, but the odds are astronomical. Same is true for not critting at a 99% chance. The point was that because of this, Crit is unreliable until 100%, at which point you need to find the turnover for damage with armor reduction included.
GP starts at 3% crit, 20.25% for pure crit% runes, 2% for mastery, and 8% for brawler glove at lvl 1. Total of 33.25% at level one. Right off the bat, pure crit% runes are bad juju. Moving on. You purchase Avarice at level 4. You gained 1.5% based off of level, 4% on item. Total of 750g spent, 38.75% crit. You buy a second Avarice at level 7. 1.5% from level, 12% from item. Total of 1500g spent, 52.25% crit. The next time you buy an item, mid-game is over.
GP starts with 0 ArPen, 25 ArPen from runes (as well as 6.75% dodge and -5.85% CDR because that's what I have for my dps champs currently... I'm cheap), and 6 ArPen for talents. Total of 31 ArPen at lvl 1. I buy Longsword for 415g. No change to ArPen. Level 5, I buy Brutalizer, increase ArPen by 15. Total of 922g spent, ArPen is 46, +dmg is 25, CDR is -15.85%, my crit is 5%. My mid game is full on, and I'm already ready to deal true damage to just about any tank.
Fight me on this, but know that it's not really worth it. You'll crit more, I'll kill sooner. My second purchase is also avarice blade, and because it costs 750g, I may or may not get it by level 7/8. Keep in mind that this scenario has both of us making phenominal money. We would both have to be last hitting minions with parrrley! every time it is up. That also means that I would have a chance of making more just from CDR, you from first avarice blade.
I assume that you get Youmuu, Phantom, IE, and TF. Let me know if this is wrong, but regardless, that build is 13.7k gold. Mine is more like Youmuu, BT, Mallet, LW (tank heavy only) or I dunno really... maybe PD (Edit: likely Manamune instead of PD, as PD doesn't do any +dmg or ArPen and I rely on Parrrley for my big hits). That build is 10.6k with LW, 11.8k with PD. The difference in cost allows me a Manamune (only true if I got LW. Off by 300g to be true for PD) to balance out.
This having been said, I don't see how crit is better during early-mid game since you will, at most reliable threshold for crit, crit every other time. I will crit almost never, but I do true damage +25dmg at the same time that you have a 39.25% (we'll say 40% to be easy) crit chance. You will do 64-128 (154-316 for Parrrley) if you do true damage at level 5 (impossible as all champs have some armor). I will do 89 (178) true damage every hit at level 5. I'm unlikely to crit, so I didn't even care to add it.
Over 10 parley shots, I do straight 178*10->1780dmg.
You do [(154*6*(1-reduction))+(316*4*(1-reduction))] ->
[(924*(1-reduction))+(1264*(1-reduction))] ->
2188*(1-reduction) at simplest calculation.
I know that at this point you're screaming something like,"Don't you see?!? As long as reduction is under 20%, you just proved me right!" The problem is that (1) this isn't WoW, and armor does give that much reduction that fast, and (2) that this is just a strait 4/10 guarentee instead of 40% per shot. That's why I say, and emphasize, unreliable.
I am not fanboying anything, and am far beyond the age or maturity level to do so.
The 25 ArPen / 14% crit are runes only, not to be confused with the phrase 'without runes'. We know that ArPen goes up to 31 with talents, and crit goes to 16%. Your crit goes up to 24% with first item, we go itemless on ArPen end and get longsword to build brutalizer.
I have understood everything that you have said, you are ignoring parts of what I am saying. You pick out what you don't like and argue it. Stop. Listen to the whole thing.
Specific champs benefit more from crit% than others: Agreed. GP and Tryndamere are about the only ones though. Don't agree? Sorry, move on.
Everyone knows that you can crit an infinite number of times on a 1% chance, but the odds are astronomical. Same is true for not critting at a 99% chance. The point was that because of this, Crit is unreliable until 100%, at which point you need to find the turnover for damage with armor reduction included.
GP starts at 3% crit, 20.25% for pure crit% runes, 2% for mastery, and 8% for brawler glove at lvl 1. Total of 33.25% at level one. Right off the bat, pure crit% runes are bad juju. Moving on. You purchase Avarice at level 4. You gained 1.5% based off of level, 4% on item. Total of 750g spent, 38.75% crit. You buy a second Avarice at level 7. 1.5% from level, 12% from item. Total of 1500g spent, 52.25% crit. The next time you buy an item, mid-game is over.
GP starts with 0 ArPen, 25 ArPen from runes (as well as 6.75% dodge and -5.85% CDR because that's what I have for my dps champs currently... I'm cheap), and 6 ArPen for talents. Total of 31 ArPen at lvl 1. I buy Longsword for 415g. No change to ArPen. Level 5, I buy Brutalizer, increase ArPen by 15. Total of 922g spent, ArPen is 46, +dmg is 25, CDR is -15.85%, my crit is 5%. My mid game is full on, and I'm already ready to deal true damage to just about any tank.
Fight me on this, but know that it's not really worth it. You'll crit more, I'll kill sooner. My second purchase is also avarice blade, and because it costs 750g, I may or may not get it by level 7/8. Keep in mind that this scenario has both of us making phenominal money. We would both have to be last hitting minions with parrrley! every time it is up. That also means that I would have a chance of making more just from CDR, you from first avarice blade.
I assume that you get Youmuu, Phantom, IE, and TF. Let me know if this is wrong, but regardless, that build is 13.7k gold. Mine is more like Youmuu, BT, Mallet, LW (tank heavy only) or I dunno really... maybe PD (Edit: likely Manamune instead of PD, as PD doesn't do any +dmg or ArPen and I rely on Parrrley for my big hits). That build is 10.6k with LW, 11.8k with PD. The difference in cost allows me a Manamune (only true if I got LW. Off by 300g to be true for PD) to balance out.
This having been said, I don't see how crit is better during early-mid game since you will, at most reliable threshold for crit, crit every other time. I will crit almost never, but I do true damage +25dmg at the same time that you have a 39.25% (we'll say 40% to be easy) crit chance. You will do 64-128 (154-316 for Parrrley) if you do true damage at level 5 (impossible as all champs have some armor). I will do 89 (178) true damage every hit at level 5. I'm unlikely to crit, so I didn't even care to add it.
Over 10 parley shots, I do straight 178*10->1780dmg.
You do [(154*6*(1-reduction))+(316*4*(1-reduction))] ->
[(924*(1-reduction))+(1264*(1-reduction))] ->
2188*(1-reduction) at simplest calculation.
I know that at this point you're screaming something like,"Don't you see?!? As long as reduction is under 20%, you just proved me right!" The problem is that (1) this isn't WoW, and armor does give that much reduction that fast, and (2) that this is just a strait 4/10 guarentee instead of 40% per shot. That's why I say, and emphasize, unreliable.
Oberron wrote:
I have understood everything that you have said, you are ignoring parts of what I am saying. You pick out what you don't like and argue it. Stop. Listen to the whole thing.
Nah, he just argues his point of view with faulty numbers and bad comparisons.
Quoted:
Specific champs benefit more from crit% than others: Agreed. GP and Tryndamere are about the only ones though. Don't agree? Sorry, move on.
I actually don't agree. GP will definetly benefit from ArP more than crit as his damage will be higher. Tryndamere on the other hand gets
Bloodlust stacks for critting so I can't say for him.Quoted:
GP starts at 3% crit
No basic crit chance.. Removed many patches ago.
Quoted:
20.25% for pure crit% runes, 2% for mastery, and 8% for brawler glove at lvl 1. Total of 33.25% at level one. Right off the bat, pure crit% runes are bad juju. Moving on. You purchase Avarice at level 4. You gained 1.5% based off of level, 4% on item. Total of 750g spent, 38.75% crit. You buy a second Avarice at level 7. 1.5% from level, 12% from item. Total of 1500g spent, 52.25% crit.
These kinds of examples are actually unnecessary. As long as you use the same amount of AD and crit and then add the rune bonuses you get correct answers.
Here's a generic mid game calc. (adding to desc)
CrC: 100AD, 36+14%CrC, 0ArP.
50armor: (100 * 0,5 + 100 * 2 * 0,5) * (1 - 50/150) = 100 average dmg
100armor: (100 * 0,5 + 100 * 2 * 0,5) * (1 - 100/200) = 75 average dmg
ArP: 100AD, 36%CrC, 0+25ArP
50armor: (100 * 0,64 + 100 * 2 * 0,36) * (1 - 25/125) = 108,8 average dmg
100armor: (100 * 0,64 + 100 * 2 * 0,36) * (1 - 75/175) = 77,71 average dmg
Quoted:
ArPen is 46, +dmg is 25, CDR is -15.85%, my crit is 5%. My mid game is full on, and I'm already ready to deal true damage to just about any tank.
Not really. Real tanks should be at 50+armor by then, but the damage will be significantly higher than with crit atleast.
@ The teemo starting armor thing: all the starting values are starting value+x*lvl. Teemo lvl1? 14 + 1 * 3,75 = 17,75armor. Same with all stats.
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Darcurse wrote:
It doesnt even matter anymore what iam saying to you?
Does it matter what I say to you? I've got proof of my claims, but you just keep arguing the same thing, not understanding my proof.
Quoted:
I gave Searz the "100%" armor reduce to compare it with my 30% crit.
Doesn't matter. Using correct calculations and numbers will bring correct answers. You use neither.
Quoted:
(stop fanboying already)
That was just rude and stupid.. He, unlike you can see that I'm stating facts and going about my calcs the right way.
Quoted:
You can only get 14% without runes but 25 ArP ??? Where, when? Not this dimension dude. sry you should rly use correct numbers. Let me copy you here: "That makes no sense.. You have to use the correct numbers when calculating. Otherwise the answer will be completely wrong.."
Exactly. It still applys. I said that the runes give that much.
Greater Mark of Critical Chance + Greater Quintessence of Critical Chance = 0,93 * 9 + 1,86 * 3 = 14%.Greater Mark of Desolation + Greater Quintessence of Desolation = 1,66 * 9 + 3,33 * 3 = 25ArP. (the numbers on this site are off by a small amount, just look in the store/ingame)
Quoted:
(seems like you trying to hide behind them, low on arguments already?):
Yep. I can't figure out what to say when logic doesn't work.
Quoted:
I did it earlier and just between you and me: theyre also correct.
You didn't calculate. You just threw numbers out and played with them.
Quoted:
Talking about wrong numbers and proofing wrong: Cant figure out what went wrong on your calcs, but you altered them pretty well adding masteries somewhere you wanted to.
That's because you simply don't understand them. I could explain more thoroghly what the numbers mean, but you'll have to ask nicely and stop being rude.
Quoted:
P.S. Rly rly rly thx B-Wong at least one guy who can read and/or use some brain.
His statement had absolutely nothing to do with you. You're just making a fool out of yourself..
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2 things really quick as I'm getting ready to leave for work. First, ya'll told me LoLwiki was the most up-to-date place to get info, that's where I got the base crit and base AD from for my calcs.... ****. I just can't win on these stats. Second,.. I almost never have broken 50 armor by level 5 as malphite, but probably has something to do with me prioritizing boots... I put a lot of emphasis on dodge against pure phys teams, and merc treads againts heavy caster teams.
@Oberron
Playing LoL often enough to argue on this thread but dont know that there isnt base crit/crit per level anymore....?
At least you understand what iam trying to say, unless Searz, youve just got a different opinion on this. (thats not a point somebody can argue about)
@Searz
Your loosing ground... trying to take my post apart to just answer what cou can answer, never do that.
1. Using essences but not runes? Cant get your point in doing so. But yeah i misscalculated somewhere with that 22 earlier, i give you that.(It doesnt really matter, though)
2. "Also: Talking about wrong numbers and proofing wrong: Cant figure out what went wrong on your calcs, but you altered them pretty well adding masteries somewhere you wanted to." <- I want an answer on that, if you already started answering single phrases.
3. If you REALLY want to understand my argumentation (instead of denying them, no matter what), stop saying things like "The numbers of youre calcs are wrong, thats why im right", and use "correct" values on them (if you can). Doesnt change anything. In fact i can also just start saying your calcs are wrong without giving a proper explanation (and just read 2. again, yours DO have wrong numbers).
Got more and more the feeling you copied them somewhere... else i cant explain you blindly believing in them.
Last: B-Wong and i told the exact same thing. The only thing i added was about crit/ArP EARLY.
He just said the right things about crit and armor relation, which i ALSO said about 2-3 times.
For example: Denying that crit becomes more valuable if the enemy gains more than 170 Armor. And it seems that he also starts with crit early.
(Yeah, you have to read between the lines to know that)
Playing LoL often enough to argue on this thread but dont know that there isnt base crit/crit per level anymore....?
At least you understand what iam trying to say, unless Searz, youve just got a different opinion on this. (thats not a point somebody can argue about)
@Searz
Your loosing ground... trying to take my post apart to just answer what cou can answer, never do that.
1. Using essences but not runes? Cant get your point in doing so. But yeah i misscalculated somewhere with that 22 earlier, i give you that.(It doesnt really matter, though)
2. "Also: Talking about wrong numbers and proofing wrong: Cant figure out what went wrong on your calcs, but you altered them pretty well adding masteries somewhere you wanted to." <- I want an answer on that, if you already started answering single phrases.
3. If you REALLY want to understand my argumentation (instead of denying them, no matter what), stop saying things like "The numbers of youre calcs are wrong, thats why im right", and use "correct" values on them (if you can). Doesnt change anything. In fact i can also just start saying your calcs are wrong without giving a proper explanation (and just read 2. again, yours DO have wrong numbers).
Got more and more the feeling you copied them somewhere... else i cant explain you blindly believing in them.
Last: B-Wong and i told the exact same thing. The only thing i added was about crit/ArP EARLY.
He just said the right things about crit and armor relation, which i ALSO said about 2-3 times.
For example: Denying that crit becomes more valuable if the enemy gains more than 170 Armor. And it seems that he also starts with crit early.
(Yeah, you have to read between the lines to know that)
I've made my case and would like to bury this now. You bring nothing new to this argument. Ask nicely and I'll teach you how to calculate average damage and how the armor system works. Keep arguing and I will ignore you.
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xD
Sry but that was necessary... should i repeat just one thing Mr."High´n Mighty" ?
Just one thing to make it a little easier for you.
"2. "Also: Talking about wrong numbers and proofing wrong: Cant figure out what went wrong on your calcs, but you altered them pretty well adding masteries somewhere you wanted to." <- I want an answer on that, if you already started answering single phrases."
If you cant even answer this your technically out. If you wanna behave like a little child, fine. I´m not blaming you for that, but at least save some dignity while retreating.
Sry but that was necessary... should i repeat just one thing Mr."High´n Mighty" ?
Just one thing to make it a little easier for you.
"2. "Also: Talking about wrong numbers and proofing wrong: Cant figure out what went wrong on your calcs, but you altered them pretty well adding masteries somewhere you wanted to." <- I want an answer on that, if you already started answering single phrases."
If you cant even answer this your technically out. If you wanna behave like a little child, fine. I´m not blaming you for that, but at least save some dignity while retreating.
Oberron wrote:
ya'll told me LoLwiki was the most up-to-date place to get info, that's where I got the base crit and base AD from for my calcs.... ****. I just can't win on these stats.
The official site usually is up to date. Otherwise this is a great wiki.
Quoted:
I almost never have broken 50 armor by level 5 as malphite, but probably has something to do with me prioritizing boots... I put a lot of emphasis on dodge against pure phys teams, and merc treads againts heavy caster teams.
You have brutalizer by level5? Isn't that a bit early? As a first item even before boots maybe, but normally I'd say it's bought after lvl8 or so.
Sittin' on chimneys, putting fire up my ***.
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"2. "Also: Talking about wrong numbers and proofing wrong: Cant figure out what went wrong on your calcs, but you altered them pretty well adding masteries somewhere you wanted to." <- Already answered. Are you even reading my posts?
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Oberron ****ing out sry.... youre not even understand an inch about what iam talking.
I gave Searz the "100%" armor reduce to compare it with my 30% crit.
the 100% crit was only once cause searz talked about "ArP everywhere and always better" in a way which assumed, that even if you do crit ArP does more dmg. (stop fanboying already)
And btw, yeah youre right getting 30% doesnt mean that you crit evry third hit.
ALSO you can crit 10 times a row with only 1% (you get what i mean?) on the long go, youll really have a crit (around) every third hit.
And Searz.. same thing: What ******** are you talking about????
You can only get 14% without runes but 25 ArP ??? Where, when? Not this dimension dude. sry you should rly use correct numbers. Let me copy you here: "That makes no sense.. You have to use the correct numbers when calculating. Otherwise the answer will be completely wrong.."
6 Points Attack mastery. nothing more except runes. Cant even buy an item on game start. And where the hell do you get that crit chance from? 2% Attack mastery, 8% on item. Where did the 4% come from?
If youre so ****ing proud about those calcs (seems like you trying to hide behind them, low on arguments already?):
Calculate the same DPS Champ doing 3 hits with Arp and with crit chance. (Try to resist using your screwed up stats..)
I did it earlier and just between you and me: theyre also correct.
Btw: In a rune-thread talking about leaving them out... yeah.... dunno.. missed the mark?
Also: Talking about wrong numbers and proofing wrong: Cant figure out what went wrong on your calcs, but you altered them pretty well adding masteries somewhere you wanted to.
P.S. Rly rly rly thx B-Wong at least one guy who can read and/or use some brain.