Best rune choices for maximizing physical dmg.

[quote=Searz]I used only the crit from deadlyness, no other masteries. I think I'll remove it though. I just did it to show that crit dmg was useless even with a small amount of crit, but it's pretty obvious that it's useless at level 1 anyway.[/quote]

[quote=Takeoninja]I think that with masteries and @ L18 the /lvl AD runes (which got buffed) out shines the ArP runes given that you bought a Last Whisper (which you do if you don't get ArP runes). Though they aren't as good @ L1 but back there you mostly hit creeps (and I take it they have very little armor in the beginning, prolly low enough that 6 ArP from masteries suffice) so the bonus to AD still helps with last hitting even though you deal less dmg to enemy champs. Later on though, and especially given AD scaling abilities, AD/lvl runes really come in handy. I use AD/lvl runes on Corki and they really work out well for me there. Perhaps that is mainly caused by his passive but I do think that AD/lvl runes are a sound choice for other chars going Last Whisper as well and especially for chars who have abilities which scale with AD (and have good ratio ofc). I noticed the numbers in the rune planner here is out of date but perhaps you could run the numbers and see if my guess is right?[/quote]

[quote=SixSonatas]Thing with [[Last Whisper]] is that you sacrifice an item slot for another item that can give up to 100 AD ([[The Bloodthirster]]), so I can see LW with AD runes good for mid to late game, but once late game kicks into gear, ArP runes with AD can probably do better -- if you don't need the AD, extra ArP isn't horrible, it's just not optimal.[/quote]

[quote=Oberron]This is the case in point over why we are arguing ArPen vs. Crit%. Regardless of where you are in the game, both are great bonuses for your overall dmg output. Also, we are saving ourselves from wasting money on items that we could rune for and/or IP on runes we could itemize for.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Takeoninja]perhaps you could run the numbers and see if my guess is right? [/quote] Sure thing. My guess is that ArP trumps AD/lvl, but we'll have to see. ArP: 40%|6+25ArP and 280AD 100armor: 280 * (1 - 41,4/141,4) = 197,96 200armor: 280 * (1 - 101,4/201,4) = 139,02 AD/lvl: 40%|6ArP and 280+35,37AD 100armor: 315,37 * (1 - 56,4/156,4) = 201,65 200armor: 315,37 * (1 - 116,4/216,4) = 145,7 It seems AD/lvl deals more endgame damage than ArP, but ArP will be much more effective before you get your [[Last Whisper]]. Early damage is just as important as end-damage. ArP will also give more dmg the more AD you get from items. So I'd still go for ArP. I personally hate Bloodthirster stacking, but it will probably benefit more from ArP.[/quote]

[quote=Takeoninja][quote=Searz] It seems AD/lvl deals more endgame damage than ArP, but ArP will be much more effective before you get your [[Last Whisper]]. Early damage is just as important as end-damage. ArP will also give more dmg the more AD you get from items. So I'd still go for ArP. I personally hate Bloodthirster stacking, but it will probably benefit more from ArP. [/quote] It wasn't much of a difference though, but anyhow, someone mentioned that you waste a slot on Last Whisper but that seems like a poor point, LW is a pretty cheap item (125 g more than a BF, and it gives +10 dmg) and 400 dmg with 1.0 AS is in most cases not as good as 250 dmg and 1.5 AS (just random numbers, sorry) granted you have on-hit effects like Frozen Mallet (too ensure perma slow) or Madreds/Malady/Guinsoo/Cleaver etc. also good when you have red buff. And as far as early damage goes; auto-attacking is a pretty small part of the damage dealt at low levels IMHO, down there its mostly the base damage on skills that matter (and most skills to magic dmg even though they scale with AD, Corki's ult etc.). I'm most definitely not saying that ArP is useless, it is proven here that in most cases it trumps anything, but I disagree with AD (runes) being as bad as you made it out to be. Having said that I think your calculations are really good at helping people understand what works and what doesn't.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Takeoninja] most skills to magic dmg even though they scale with AD, Corki's ult etc.[/quote] Corki's ulti, Sivir's Boomerang and Katarina's Bouncing blade are actually the only spells in the game (that I know of) that scales with AD but deals magic dmg. Spells like Ezreal's Mystic Shot and Pantheon's Spear throw (and many more) deal physical dmg. That makes ArP a definite choice for them. I'd consider AD runes for Corki and Sivir. [quote]I'm most definitely not saying that ArP is useless, it is proven here that in most cases it trumps anything, but I disagree with AD (runes) being as bad as you made it out to be.[/quote] I've never said that AD runes are bad. AD/lvl is pretty bad though. AD gives a big boost to early damage, but is worst in lategame. I personally like ArP much more because of how good it scales with your dmg.[/quote]

[quote=Takeoninja][quote=Searz] Corki's ulti, Sivir's Boomerang and Katarina's Bouncing blade are actually the only spells in the game (that I know of) that scales with AD but deals magic dmg. Spells like Ezreal's Mystic Shot and Pantheon's Spear throw (and many more) deal physical dmg. That makes ArP a definite choice for them. I'd consider AD runes for Corki and Sivir. [/quote] You're forgetting: Miss Fortune's Bullet Time (ult), Jax's Empower, Kennen's Electrical Surge (passive part), Gragas's Body Slam (think its magic and not physical), Olaf's Undertow, Poppy's Devastating Blow, Shaco's Two-Shiv Poison (think its magic and not physical) and Twisted Fate's Pick A Card; Red (think its magic and not physical). So 5 more that I'm sure of and 3 that I'm not 100% sure about. And I really do think that on Poppy, Corki, Sivir, Jax and Miss Fortune AD/lvl > ArP. Granted those are only 5 characters out of many more physical DPS chars. [quote=Searz] I've never said that AD runes are bad. AD/lvl is pretty bad though. AD gives a big boost to early damage, but is worst in lategame. I personally like ArP much more because of how good it scales with your dmg. [/quote] IMHO that big boost early won't get you much, there are rarely any big team fights early and the ganks that go down before AD/lvl catch up to flat AD aren't noticeably easier to succeed with if you went with flat AD over AD/lvl. And the harassing doesn't get that much better from ~+13 dmg per shot more @ L1. So my opinion is that the flat AD runes are crappy for anyone but Akali to trigger the passive (and for that you need 1 or 2 quints depending on masteries) while the AD/lvl is very good for characters that have abilities that scale with AD but does magic dmg and good for AD characters that often go Last Whisper for the AS and penetration (like Ashe or Tristana).[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Takeoninja] You're forgetting: Miss Fortune's Bullet Time (ult), Jax's Empower, Kennen's Electrical Surge (passive part), Gragas's Body Slam (think its magic and not physical), Olaf's Undertow, Poppy's Devastating Blow, Shaco's Two-Shiv Poison (think its magic and not physical) and Twisted Fate's Pick A Card; Red (think its magic and not physical).[/quote] Twisted Fate's cards deal [u]extra[/u] magic dmg on an attack, it does not scale with AD. AD builds on Kennen and Gragas could have more use of AD, but all other builds have no use of it. Olaf definetly has more use of ArP even if [[Undertow]] scales with AD. The tooltip doesn't make it clear whether [[Devastating Blow]] actually is a normal hit + extra magic or only magic. I think it works like the cards for TF. [quote]And I really do think that on Poppy, Corki, Sivir, Jax and Miss Fortune AD/lvl > ArP.[/quote] I agree on most of them. Even though Jax's other skills won't benefit from it, his passive will give extra HP for AD. I think I'd use flat AD runes for Jax though. For an early boost to HP and AD. I'm unsure about Sivir. I think [[Ricochet]] deals physical dmg, but that may not be of great importance. As I said above; I'm not sure if [[Devastating Blow]] deals magic dmg so I can't say for her. [quote]So my opinion is that the flat AD runes are crappy for anyone but Akali to trigger the passive (and for that you need 1 or 2 quints depending on masteries) while the AD/lvl is very good for characters that have abilities that scale with AD but does magic dmg and good for AD characters that often go Last Whisper for the AS and penetration (like Ashe or Tristana).[/quote] Flat AD gives a nice boost to your lasthitting power early on. They are certainly not worse than AD/lvl. It all depends on what you want. AD champs that go for Last Whisper and have no AD scaling magic spells should definetly benefit more from Crit than AD/lvl. Lategame dmg will be much higher.[/quote]

[quote=Takeoninja]I think all has been said on the subject now so I won't drag it on further. Just wanted to clarify that devastating blow really does deal all magic dmg, did some testing on this with a friend in a custom game. He went and got low @ dragon then I hit him with 1 devastating blow so he died and he checked his "cause of death" thingy and devastating blow was listed as the only source and as magic dmg only. So unless the system is really complex devastating blow only does magic dmg. In the normal case when something does magic and physical damage (like Kayle's ranged melee) the damage numbers are separated, 1 for the attack damage (physical) and 1 for the magic damage (spell). Same for Teemo's poison and MF's extra magic damage.[/quote]