Let's talk alistar

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=Urscythe] [quote=PsiGuard] [quote=TheJohn] Good items: Shurelyas, Mercs, Lich Bane, Aegis, FoN, Frozen Heart, Randuins, and a lot more [/quote] NO. Do not get Lich Bane if you don't get any other AP! TriForce is infinitely better unless you get at least 2 other AP items. Actually I've found [[Mercury's Treads]] to be completely unnecessary in almost every game as Alistar. His ult has a built-in cleanse and dmg reduction which basically says "stop focusing me!" Boots of mobility have been my preference, though for AP Ali I take CDR boots. [/quote] Lichbane is better than Trinity Force as soon as your AP is greater than your [b]BASE[/b] AD. Remember, Sheen effect only works on your base AD, not your total. For most heroes, Abyssal Scepter, Doran's Ring, and Lichbane will result in your AP being higher than base AD (you could use, say, Kage's Lucky Pick instead of Doran's Ring if you wanted.) [/quote] Well, that would be 2 AP items wouldn't it? And that's only the point where the proc from LB exceeds TF. [[Trinity Force]] provides a lot better other stats (better MS, crit, a slow) than [[Lich Bane]]. Also, [[Alistar]]'s base damage is exceedingly high, as Duff pointed out. You actually need to BUILD AP if you want to make use of [[Lich Bane]].[/quote]

[quote=Urscythe][quote=PsiGuard]Well, that would be 2 AP items wouldn't it? And that's only the point where the proc from LB exceeds TF. [[Trinity Force]] provides a lot better other stats (better MS, crit, a slow) than [[Lich Bane]]. Also, [[Alistar]]'s base damage is exceedingly high, as Duff pointed out. You actually need to BUILD AP if you want to make use of [[Lich Bane]]. [/quote] Pretty much, but he's still a good pick for AP. His base dmg and ratios got nerfed but they're still decent. He's still much better built as tanky support, and Triforce does a better job doing that. I don't recommend Lichbane on Alistar, I'm just saying that LB is better than Trinity Force as soon as your AP is greater than your base AD. It grants attack speed, a little more move speed, crit, and things like that, but none of that is at all important if you're the kind of hero that would be building Lichbane anyway. Maokai as an example, you gain much more damage building AP/Lichbane than Trinity Force. Whether that's the [i]best[/i] way to play him is up for debate (in a typical 35 minute high-Elo game you probably won't get enough farm to get your Lichbane setup really rolling, which is why Chu8 pushes the Triforce build), but it [i]is[/i] more damage, because he has nothing to take advantage of the physical DPS stats other than a high base attack value. TF is generally much better on heroes that can really use every aspect of it, though it's a solid item on damned near everyone. Blitzcrank and Poppy are very good examples of heroes that can utilize every single aspect of Trinity Force.[/quote]

[quote=Hamduden]Y U NO HAVE ANY REP? pop. now better. Good discussion, I'm apparently still learning.[/quote]

[quote=deathalo44]I kinda get fazed of why Support + AD Carries apparantly must always lane bottom 0.o After a couple ranked games as a total non-support and bottom lane with a carry, we still could pwn a lot, under the farm on champs over the farm on creeps :P[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=PotatisFarfar] [quote]He's the most versatile champion[/quote] Sorry duff. That place belongs to Cho'gath. [/quote] Oh. LOL. Ok. Cause Cho gath can do anything outside of full tank..? Full tank Cho is excellent. AP Cho sucks. Offtank Cho is average. Jungle cho is decent. Support Cho is impossible and would be awful. AD carry Cho sucks. And with Alistar? AD Alistar can out damage almost anything end game, and plays similar to Poppy. People just don't do it. Even Saint Vicious has done it and also vouches for it's damage potential. Support Alistar is one of the best, if not the best supports in the game. Alistar jungles about as well as Cho Gath, neither would be considered competitive level junglers. Alistar tanks similarly to Cho Gath in terms of durability, but the passive increasing of size and the AoE radius of Cho's pop up make Cho Gath the better tank. If the radius of the pop up were the same and Cho Gath didn't get bigger, they would probably be about evn in terms of tanking, maybe with a slight edge to Alistar because of his ult. Cho is the better tank though. AP carry Alistar is a MILLION times better than AP carry Cho, even AFTER the Alistar nerfs. AP Cho gath is useless. Running offtanky versions of the champions, neither one will be optimal, but Alistar will make better use of an offtanky role, and in most cases deal more effective damage than Cho gath. I can see a trinity Force build on an Offtanky Cho Gath working fairly well if you build enough CDR. I may in fact have to go try that, if I recall Cho has one of the highest base AD values in game. I'm going to post-pone my comment on who's the better offtank for now, this could either be a toss up or even potentially an advantage for Cho. If you did want to roam (Roaming sucks) Alistar is better at that. Basically; AD carry; Ali better. Cho can't AD carry at all. Jungler; Tie. Offtank; Undecided, but probably tie. AP carry; Ali better. AP Cho is bad. Tank; Cho better, but Ali can tank as well. The difference is, Cho is one of the best tanks in game. Roam; Ali better. Ali is more versatile. Easily.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Whoever said lichbane > Trinity as soon as your AP is > your base AD... That's not even slightly true. You're getting attack speed, crit chance, 30 AD (Which is a lot, don't underestimate 30 AD.) more move speed, health, mana. SLOWING PROCS. Trinity Force isn't an item you buy JUST to get the bonus damage procs from. It's a well rounded item and all of those rounded stats and effects benefit Alistar tremendously. It's just a side note that he also has one of the highest base attack values in game, making attack speed, crit chance, and the bonus 150% procs more valuable.[/quote]