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Lady Amelyne wrote:
Call me conservative or however you want, but I simply can't see how is gender associated with what's inside one's mind/one's current mood or whatever.
How can you not understand that, and at the same time not deny the existence of transgender? Not that I am saying you should deny that, but I don't know how these two statements do not conflict with each other.
RottedApples wrote:
If you want to go around and act like a girl even though you aren't, or vice versa. go ahead. I won't stop you. But for the love of god don't get mad just because someone doesn't "refer to you with the correct gender pronoun" or some stupid **** like that. When i was younger i didn't get mad at someone on the phone for calling me a girl because my voice was higher then. (and yes that actually happened a couple times)
I think it has everything to do with understanding. If someone asks if you could not refer to them as something, then I suppose that's not entirely unreasonable. I think both sides need to be understanding in that; be calm, polite, and try to adjust; it really isn't all that hard.
I mean, if calling someone “he” as opposed to “she” makes them feel better, then what's the big deal of you know, not granting that?
Nighthawk wrote:
No real point in having this kind of discussion here, there's other places to educate yourself if you want too and if you don't nothing I say is going to change that.
Expecting people to educate themselves is not only too easy, but also kind of lazy. If you wish people in the world to become more knowledgeable on a subject like this, then you better start teaching them. Yes, not everyone wants to learn, but you'll find that there's a lot of reasonable people out there who will be like “Oh, I never looked at it that way.”
Be the change you want to see in the world.
Nighthawk wrote:
Being preached too by a bunch of cisgender people...
Let's turn this into an “us versus them” argument, that'll make things a lot easier. Also: to*.
Joxuu wrote:
That's not quite right. It's good to get the best out of both worlds. You get a better view on things after you listen to both parties and their arguments. Example: There's an attempt to make health care better in America atm. You get the best optimized solution by listening both sides who are against and for the update. You don't get the best overall solutions by listening only the side that agrees with you.
Debating/argumenting/discussing with all sides of the spectrum is how you get a better world view.
I think the American healthcare comparison is about one of the worst ones to make, but that's out of the scope of this discussion :^).
While I do think this is a correct message, I do also think that it means people need to have an open mind to new ideas; there being more than two genders is a new idea to most Western Cultures, and I think meeting that with a resounding “I believe there are only two genders, and no one can convince me of the opposite being true.” is dismissive and kind of contradicts your message, in my opinion.
I am mostly curious where the “I refuse to believe that more or less than two genders exist.”—paraphrasing here—idea comes from; if gender is different from sex, and if gender is a social construct, then why is the very notion of exploring the option of considering that there's more than two genders considered absurd?
I am not saying that people should necessarily agree, disagree, believe, or not believe any of it, but I am just trying to comprehend this thought process, and what it's based on; because if the only reason, for dismissing the notion that more than two genders may exist, one can come up with is the fact that one cannot picture or comprehend that, then I think that one should seriously start to consider that they may be wrong on the subject.
Personally, I can say that I mostly find exploring the idea of gender as a psychological and social construct to be interesting, and it makes me wonder whether gender as a concept can actually exist in a vacuum or not.
I, too, have a hard time understanding what potential other genders are, how they are defined, and how gender itself is defined; what classifies as a gender? That being said, I personally cannot come up with a feasible argument at the moment as to why more than two genders couldn't be possible.
The issue here is that many people have actually stated they refuse to listen to anything anyone has to say that is different from their own views. It is everyone's job to listen in a debate, not just Nighthawk's and mine. It isn't even Nighthawk or me saying that we refuse to listen.
It's fair to point out that people outside the scope of understanding should take their perceptions with a grain of salt and challenge their own inherent biases. A white American stating racism doesn't exist in the US because African Americans get access to special scholarships may honestly believe that is true, but that perception doesn't make them correct.
No one has yet to even approach the simple question I asked: if you believe that gender dysphoria exists, what about people who identify as neither male nor female or somewhere in between who experience or have even been diagnosed with gender dysphoria by medical professionals? Those people exist, they are not an imaginary thing. Modern psychology (that is to say, science) doesn't agree with a binary assessment of gender. That's why professional diagnostic tools like the DSM-5 use phrases like "other genders" when referencing diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. The science used to actually understand how the human brain views itself disagrees with you. Lack of understanding of a concept does not render that concept nonexistent.
I do believe that naming every point on a spectrum is an arduous endeavor and that generic labels should be used in the vernacular, however. Labels like genderqueer, agender, etc can easily be explained even if they are not immediately understood.
It's fair to point out that people outside the scope of understanding should take their perceptions with a grain of salt and challenge their own inherent biases. A white American stating racism doesn't exist in the US because African Americans get access to special scholarships may honestly believe that is true, but that perception doesn't make them correct.
No one has yet to even approach the simple question I asked: if you believe that gender dysphoria exists, what about people who identify as neither male nor female or somewhere in between who experience or have even been diagnosed with gender dysphoria by medical professionals? Those people exist, they are not an imaginary thing. Modern psychology (that is to say, science) doesn't agree with a binary assessment of gender. That's why professional diagnostic tools like the DSM-5 use phrases like "other genders" when referencing diagnostic criteria for gender dysphoria. The science used to actually understand how the human brain views itself disagrees with you. Lack of understanding of a concept does not render that concept nonexistent.
I do believe that naming every point on a spectrum is an arduous endeavor and that generic labels should be used in the vernacular, however. Labels like genderqueer, agender, etc can easily be explained even if they are not immediately understood.
I believe there are two sexes based on human anatomy and physical characteristics typically associated with those sexes. Eg: broad shoulders, slim hips, flat chest, hirsute = xy sex. Significantly more fatty tissue, larger hips, shorter stature = xx sex. OBVIOUSLY those physical characteristics don't ALWAYS apply to xy and xx exclusively.
I wrote a lot of stuff but deleted it, because the only thing I guess I really want to ask is:
Why does the world need genders? Why can't we go off sex?
I wrote a lot of stuff but deleted it, because the only thing I guess I really want to ask is:
Why does the world need genders? Why can't we go off sex?
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jhoijhoi wrote:
I believe there are two sexes based on human anatomy and physical characteristics typically associated with those sexes. Eg: broad shoulders, slim hips, flat chest, hirsute = xy sex. Significantly more fatty tissue, larger hips, shorter stature = xx sex. OBVIOUSLY those physical characteristics don't ALWAYS apply to xy and xx exclusively.
Sex is a much broader concept with a much broader definition that does not hinge on humans specifically (See: ZW and X0). Also, next to male and female, there's also intersex.
Additionally, what you're referring to are the secondary sex characteristics, although these are not inherent to the definition of the noun sex as sexual dimorphism is not a thing in all species.
jhoijhoi wrote:
I wrote a lot of stuff but deleted it, because the only thing I guess I really want to ask is:
Why does the world need genders? Why can't we go off sex?
Why does the world need genders? Why can't we go off sex?
Because gender is a construct that we as a society at some point deemed necessary to exist--I cannot personally tell you if it's possible to have gender exist even if there would be no society at all--and a clear evidence of that, for example, are the gender roles; what sex someone is, is actually irrelevant.
For example, consider a person with CAIS; their sex would be male, but their appearance suggests female, and I think that treating them as male would be very confusing for almost everyone involved.
The_Nameless_Bard wrote:
I do believe that naming every point on a spectrum is an arduous endeavor and that generic labels should be used in the vernacular, however.
This is my main problem with how some people are trying to treat and argue this. I treat that in between with a generic label. I have no problem with people who exists in between or want to exist in between but please stop making ammunition for memes. You just make yourself look stupid and it makes it harder for me to take anything seriously. Also don't get offended by memes, they are just memes. I laugh at jokes about crippling depression despite my current state mentally.
Also on a personal note I myself am a guy, I know this. This is a fact. I do sometimes wish I was a girl, I like wearing panties sometimes because it's a fetish I have and I get off on this. I also have used a ***** before and enjoyed the experience, which does partially, mostly, play into why I sometimes want to be a girl (but it's also because I want to look like a cute grill) and I'm bisexual. Yet I won't take any actions such as surgery to complete this goal and I have no problems being a guy because that's what I am and I'm fine with it. I wasn't born as a girl so trying to become one I feel would be a rough and unfulfilling experience physically, mentally, and socially. But I don't go around identifying myself as some weird thing because I want to. I just keep living my life, hanging out doing whatever having a good time. Gender is something I hardly ever worry about. And for as much as it is so important and iconic in our lives being something that affects daily routine, it hardly matters to me and I do somewhat struggle to grasp why it matters so much, to the extent that people will flip out if they are "misgendered", to other people. I feel like you have to have something wrong with you mentally to be so concerned over something that in the grand scheme of things is so minor.
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GrandmasterD wrote:
Sex ... does not hinge on humans specifically ... intersex.
I was only referring to humans in this case. And by saying there are only 2 sexes for humans, I'm not saying that you can't have a combination of both (like a hermaphrodite).
GrandmasterD wrote:
secondary sex characteristics... not a thing in all species.
GrandmasterD wrote:
For example, consider a person with CAIS; their sex would be male, but their appearance suggests female, and I think that treating them as male would be very confusing for almost everyone involved.
This is my issue. Why is there a difference between treating a person as a "male" or a "female"?
It's actually not mine or anyone else's job to educate you in order to have you accept my opinion. I also view it as a waste of time.
Especially when multiple have flat out stated their opinions are correct and if you think otherwise you're wrong.
It's especially hilarious when people treat this as such a minor topic. To you, yeah I'm sure it is.
To people who identify out of their social norms, to be expected to just calmly be told that they should just accept that no matter how they change their appearance, or no matter how many times they say that they aren't what they look like, or put in all of that effort in order to go about that, just to be told that they are wrong and don't know what's best for them or that if they "freak out" over being told they're lying to themselves, is ridiculous.
Society in general is ridiculous, but telling someone who's trans that their entire outlook on life is wrong and they're lying to themselves is like telling someone named Steve that their name is actually Nick and if they think otherwise they're an idiot.
Does that seem like a silly comparison? Sure! Because society doesn't place the same weight on names as we, for whatever reason, place on gender or sex. And because different people have different dislikes. There are people who really don't give a **** what you call them, and there are people who correct you every time you misspell their name. Invalidating one because of the other isn't fair to either.
I'm also quite aware that seeing both sides of the argument is a valid one and I actually appear on a podcast weekly to try and help more people debate properly and understand each side rather than slinging mud and losing focus of the issue at hand. It's a little harder to do over an internet forum, however.
And as Nameless said for a proper discussion to occur, you do have to be willing to change your opinions.
Also scientifically speaking there's more than just XX or XY "sexes". It's not black and white.
And Trans people have been shown to have physical bodies more akin to their "preferred gender" from birth.
Especially when multiple have flat out stated their opinions are correct and if you think otherwise you're wrong.
It's especially hilarious when people treat this as such a minor topic. To you, yeah I'm sure it is.
To people who identify out of their social norms, to be expected to just calmly be told that they should just accept that no matter how they change their appearance, or no matter how many times they say that they aren't what they look like, or put in all of that effort in order to go about that, just to be told that they are wrong and don't know what's best for them or that if they "freak out" over being told they're lying to themselves, is ridiculous.
Society in general is ridiculous, but telling someone who's trans that their entire outlook on life is wrong and they're lying to themselves is like telling someone named Steve that their name is actually Nick and if they think otherwise they're an idiot.
Does that seem like a silly comparison? Sure! Because society doesn't place the same weight on names as we, for whatever reason, place on gender or sex. And because different people have different dislikes. There are people who really don't give a **** what you call them, and there are people who correct you every time you misspell their name. Invalidating one because of the other isn't fair to either.
I'm also quite aware that seeing both sides of the argument is a valid one and I actually appear on a podcast weekly to try and help more people debate properly and understand each side rather than slinging mud and losing focus of the issue at hand. It's a little harder to do over an internet forum, however.
And as Nameless said for a proper discussion to occur, you do have to be willing to change your opinions.
Also scientifically speaking there's more than just XX or XY "sexes". It's not black and white.
And Trans people have been shown to have physical bodies more akin to their "preferred gender" from birth.
Jesus promised the end of all wicked people.
Odin promised the end of all ice giants.
I don't see many ice giants around.
For the record I understand the subject better now, and seeing how the definition of "gender" differs from "sex", I understand why some people would want to label themselves differently to just male or female (of which my definition previously was "**** or vagina", referring to sex). In their place I would find it very unnecessary, as RottedApples does, but I understand that not everyone cares about the same things, as Nighthawk said.
Gender's a made up concept anyway, no harm in making up more genders.
Gender's a made up concept anyway, no harm in making up more genders.
I'll respond in more detail later (after I've found the time to check out the things Nameless linked), but now that the word science has come up I have a follow-up question: is gender related to sex or is it not? Because if we start talking about X and Y chromosomes we're in the sex department I suppose.
********'s a pretty good fertilizer
That's not quite right. It's good to get the best out of both worlds. You get a better view on things after you listen to both parties and their arguments. Example: There's an attempt to make health care better in America atm. You get the best optimized solution by listening both sides who are against and for the update. You don't get the best overall solutions by listening only the side that agrees with you.
Debating/argumenting/discussing with all sides of the spectrum is how you get a better world view.