What RNG elements or mini-games do you think...

[quote=VexRoth][[Zoe]] + [[Spell Thief]]. You potentially get punished twice for using a summoner spell around her. Also the fact that she can get Item Active drops for items that haven't even been purchased in the game needs to go. At a minimum I'd like to see the Item active drops be limited to items that have been purchased in that game and I'd like the random drops from minions to go bye-bye. Random Drake spawns. Say you have an early game team comp and the first two dragons that spawn are infernal drakes so you use your early game power to acquire them. Hmmm, now your early game teak comp acutally scales pretty well into the late game! Yes, it required you to do something active to make sure you got those drakes, but would your team have been as successful had it been any other drake? IMO this is especially annoying in Best of 1 pro play. I do like the idea of different elemental drakes (at least thematically for a fantasty game), but I'd also drop them in a hot minute for something less random. [[Kindred]] marks have a warping effect on how the game is played. As the opposing jungler it is especially irritating because whether or not you can deny a first mark is entirely RNG based. As the [[Kindred]] if your team is behind, good luck getting marks in the enemy jungle so that you have a chance of getting powerful enough to change the course of the game. The marks require a level of team work to keep Kindred off of that just doesn't happen much in soloqueue. My team will often ping a mark on the opposite side of the map where I'm doing other things. And occasionally a laner may go deal with a mark by themselves, but often times it will just set there until Kindred gets a chance to run over and get it unless I manage to get there first. I'm not opposed to Kindred marking champions. That is fine as it gives their target a heads up that they may be on the hot seat and if the Kindred still manages to collect the mark then go them. But the marking of the camps should go bye-bye. [[Skarner]] Crystal Spires. While less RNG than some of the other examples. It is still super irritating to have to consider these things. Should I take this one before I gank or will it tip the enemy team off as to my position? And what if I have to run away or fall back to the spire in order to fight? If I didn't take it I'm definitely not as powerful as I would have been. Just make Skarner able to clear the jungle at a decent clip with decent sustain and make the spires go bye-bye. I'd give him something like a [[Teemo]] passive, [[Guerrilla Warfare]], from which he could make a lunge attack such as [[Evelynn]]'s empowered [[Whiplash]], but only when striking from stealth. That would make him much more predator - prey like IMO Mini-games to get [[Sightstone]]. Argh! Just let me decide when to buy my vision item. There are so many things that can mess with your ability to finish the various quests which can deny you getting the upgrade in a timely manner. [[Remnant of the Aspect]] - Have to work with your ADC/team to use stacks to earn 500g [[Remnant of the Ascended]] - Have to collect coins (even some weird gyrations of not getting a coin if you accidentally kill the cannon minion yourself as the support) [[Remnant of the Watchers]] - Actually have to manage to hit targets with spells. The randomness of it feels bad and takes away agency on my part with making decisions around what to do with the gold I've earned. Suppressions: Let's play the do I need to buy a [[Quicksilver Sash]] game! Oh wait I'm an AP mid laner so the only end item I can get is [[Mercurial Scimitar]] which gives me AD! At a minimum I think there needs to be an AP item that builds out QSS. Should [[Cleanse]] get rid of suppressions? Maybe. The cool down on it might have to be changed so it isn't up as frequently so their is a chance you could catch a person out with your ult. Or should ults that suppress do no damage with the power being transferred elsewhere in the champions kits? E.g. a suppression requires you to incapacitate yourself in order incapacitate the enemy, but that is all you get out of it is that moment of where you have the target locked down.[/quote]

[quote=Hamstertamer]Blast cones. Need I say more? Instant point and click escape with basically no counterplay, completely depending on the coinflip of whether it's up or not. At least make them impossible to use while in combat. Level 1 invades. Total coinflip, and way too much impact on the rest of the game because you have the time to back and get an item with first blood gold. Having double starting gold is not fair. [[sweeping blade]]. Yasuo is basically a walking example of this type of problem, but this skill in particular breaks the golden rule of mobas that every mobility skill needs a substantial cooldown. Hooks. Every single one of them, but Blitz is the worst offender. It's basically like throwing a 3 sided dice (there are 3 sifferent options on how to move laterally in respect to the hooker), and if you roll a 1, you die instantly. It's literally Russian roulette. Personally I think hooks should not exist in mobas period. [[heimerdinger]], [[illaoi]] and to a lesser extent [[singed]]. Here it's not RNG in game, but RNG at the picking screen. These champions are way too matchup dependent, unstoppable in the right matchup and useless when counterpicked. #rework.[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth]I'll have to say I don't hate blast cones, except when they help a low health enemy get away. I actually like that they can help some immobile champions be more successful/safe when counter jungling (of course it can be agrued if this is a good thing for the game overall or not...if you picked an immobile champion then should that be something you live with?). But I can see your point about the randomness. Level 1 invades. It sounds like Riot doesn't like this either and so they are looking at starting the game earlier. I too dislike the RNG of it in the since that not all my team may get out on the map immediately so they can be late for invades or walk into one since they weren't out to cover for one. I have a whole blog post about the the things that I hate about [[Yasuo]] XD. Hadn't thought about the cool down of [[Sweeping Blade]] though. I suppsoe that could be place under the mini-game of are their minions around? I think [[Nautilus]]'s style hooks are somewhat fair because it doesn't drop the target directly in your lap or go through walls. [[Pyke]] and [[Blitzcrank]] hooks which can go through wall I find less appealing. Eh, I'm not so much concerned about champions that have clear strengths and weaknesses. Both [[Heimerdinger]] and [[Illaoi]] are fairly weak if they don't have time to setup. It is the fact that getting them out of their "safe" zone is so dangerous. Saw a [[Lee Sin]] ward hop into a Heimer nest once and then boot him out. Was really satisfying to watch as he instantly got deleted once away from his turrets. Ward hoping itself is interesting. I believe there are only two champions ([[Jax]] and [[Lee Sin]] that are still capable of it, so it seems like something Riot is trying to phase out. [[Kleptomancy]] is something I forgot to mention in my first post. Like WTF is this a thing?[/quote]

[quote=Chromuro]There are really good points, I hate the actual mission system on support items. However I would like to spend two words about suppression: I could agree about an AP branch, but you have still to think that QSS is good as it is and really few champs (excluding ADC) priorityze scimitar early, a bit more as last item. Then we could talk about the 5 champs that have suppression: [list] [*][[tahm kench]]: I don't think anyone will ever buy a QSS for him since it's difficult to 3-hit+[[devour]] an enemy. At least, as support, it seems that top tahm is starting to give problems, but I guess the main focus is the insane %max health damage. The only one that isn't an ult. [*][[urgot]]: a bit less difficult than tahm, but anyway difficult since it is an execution. Moreover is a channel and the suppression doesn't help the team in any possibile way. [*][[malzahar]]: the only reason is played right now. Sure, it's point-n-click suppression, but it has a relative short range and malzahar is completely unable to do anything (and you can agree with me that he can't withstand too much damage). And it is a channel, can be interrupted easily. [*][[Warwick]]: still a channel, can be interrupted by any non-targeting displacement/hard cc. It is more usefull than the others, even for WW since it heals a lot. [*][[skarner]]: the only suppression that I can agree is broken, a point-n-click suppression with no drawbacks. The best one for sure. [/list] I don't think suppression should be touched in any case, there is enough counterplay (a 1300 gold investment is really small) for the amount of skills that have it.[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth][quote=Chromuro] I don't think suppression should be touched in any case, there is enough counterplay (a 1300 gold investment is really small) for the amount of skills that have it.[/quote] To me the second half of the sentence is why it is worth looking at. It is worth having suppressions in the game and options for counterplay to it if only a handful of champions have it?[/quote]

[quote=Chromuro]I guess it's a legit question to make, maybe Riot wanted some kind of "perfect" CC that can't be removed easily (things like [[mercury's treads]] would be omnipresent I guess, a situation like [[ninja tabi]]'s a while ago), but because of its nature they gave it to only few champs. We could always try to think these champs without it: [list] [*][[tahm kench]] and [[urgot]]: it's more of a tool than the focus itself, you don't even notice that you are suppressed, so maybe it would be more a programming problem to find a substitute that can achieve the same goal. [*][[warwick]] and [[skarner]]: they would be still good tanks/bruiser/whatever you want to build them. WW would have anyway good sustain and skarner would be anyway a CC-oriented jungler. Maybe WW could suffer a bit more than skarner? I don't really know, I don't play that much jungle, you know this role better than me. [*][[malzahar]]: as I said before, it's the only reason he's played right now. I'm pretty sure that if the ult is reverted (it was a stun a looong time ago), nobody would play him. As now, malz is a mess (he has a thousands roles and he does all of them badly) and my heart would cry to see him being executioned by Riot nerfaxe. Again. I'll wait for his rework. [/list] I don't want a [[mikael's crucible]] meta, we had enough with [[ardent censer]] last year and that wasn't fun. If it's bought by everyone (and trust me, it happened to me once or twice), QSS is the only item that can make useles some ults, some champs have to play literally with 3 skills instead of 4; not everyone buys it? At least 2-3 members of the enemy team will have it, narrowing down your possible targets. If they have to remove suppression, they have to work on the tenacity system too. It would be a problem if there were more champs with suppression, right now I think 5 are more than enough; if they have to, the number of champs that have it shouldn't surpass the 5% of the total champs. In the end it's just an unique mechanic, like [[spell thief]], with the only difference that you can do something about it lol[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth]I do recall Riot saying they were leery of adding more suppression to the game (like they felt it had its place, but sparingly). And you likely right that [[Mikael's Crucible]] would be come mandatory if all the suppressions were changed to stuns. Honestly [[Quicksilver Sash]] should probably be bought in more cases than it is currently. I just played a game last night vs. a [[Malzahar]] as an AP [[Shyvana]]. We had a [[Master Yi]] vs. a [[Nami]] of all things in Top lane. We both encountered [[Malzahar]] post level 6 in separate situations and died despite both being reasonably fed. In chat we were both like okay, time for a QSS. XD Malz just really hammers the case for some CC removal home in a very pointed way. Like the case of an AAing champ vs [[Teemo]]. Sometimes it is the only thing that will let you kill that rat.[/quote]

[quote=Chromuro]I can't say anything but that you are right. Well, since I'm here I'll contribute to this thread lol invisibility: hey, let's play hide 'n seek, but it's more russian roulette. Don't get me wrong, [[evelynn]] and [[pyke]] invisibility are totally ok, they give enough room to counterplay, but things like [[akali]] and [[shaco]] makes me tilt beyond recognition. Akali a bit less, since it's limited to a high CD skill and a smaller area. And since we are talking about [[shaco]], I hate [[hallucinate]]. It's difficult to master, I know, a lot of (newer) shacos make silly mistakes and they make evident which is the fake one, but if the player has a grain of salt, oh boy it will be pure hell. Hey, were you having fun with me? lol no I'm behind you, prepare to be oneshotted. Nothing personel kiddo. One time a shaco ganked me when I was malz. A perfect spell combo, everything hit him correctly. He was the hallucination. Shaco entered lane, with me standing still, spammed a bit the dance and then he went away. I got myself executed under their tower because I was embarassed af.[/quote]

[quote=VexRoth]If we are talking invisibility/camouflage as a jungler I'm going to have to go with [[Akali]]'s [[Twilight Shroud]] and being super irritating to deal with. However like you say it is confined to some degree (nearby bushes can expand and add a layer of confusion) and on a somewhat it high cool down. The two champions that I'v have a real problem with are [[Rengar]] and [[Twitch]] as they both can open up on you from outside of the bad guy is near you indicator range. Rengar by leaping onto you and Twitch by using his ultimate. Like how the hell is that fair? Rengar is slightly easier to deal with in some ways because at least he has to land on top of you to do damage. A good Twitch just chills until you engage on his team and blow some of your cool downs. Then pow-pow-pow. Pentakill!!! And even if he doesn't kill everyone if he gets one kill his Q resets and he can just stealth on out just to go do it again somewhere else on the map. [[Shaco]] is a pain to deal with for sure if they are any good, but they can either kill you or not. If not they are probably screwed since like Rengar they had to use their stealth ability to get into position for the coup de grace. One trick with [[Shaco]] is to ward out a little further than normal because his Q shows a puff of smoke that is visible. Though how far out to ward is interesting as the duration on his invisibility goes up based on how many points he has in Q. And not all Shacos max Q first (or at least there are times that they have not).[/quote]