Offtank Nocturne

[quote=DuffTime]Noc is a lot like Trundle in the sense that he has much more lane power than people give him credit. His passive is sustain, he has good range, and his spell shield makes him hard to gank. I'm not making a case that Noc is better in lane than Renekton. That wasn't an idea I put out there. Noc doesn't function anything like Renekton in teamfights, and that would be the distinction I would make. A solo lane Nocturne with solo lane farm can build tanky DPS, and deal as much damage as a Nocturne who jungled and built glass cannon. Also, ganking mid is very easy if you solo'd top with his ulti, and it's very easy to suddenly show up to fights in mid lane which happen with some frequency. There is merit to running him in a solo lane, he has all the tools, including sustain, and with the right runes he can do it well. If the enemy team has a Kog Maw for example, who's going to sit in the back and bomb away, and your team already has a Trundle locked in the jungle, Noc may be a superior choice to solo top than Renekton because of the investment of a champion to counter Kog Maw. I'm not saying he lanes better than Renekton, he doesn't. Not many champions do. I'm not saying he's better in lane than in jungle, I haven't played him in a while, but there are real reasons to consider taking a lane with him should the need arise.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=PsiGuard] There are only a handful of junglers that would be suitable to replace him [/quote] o_O? I would take Trundle over Nocturne any day, because he fits my play style so much better. Noc is sort of an assassin mid game, anti carry late game. He only really fits well into teams that make the most of having a champion that performs that role. Otherwise you have to sort of win before the game goes too late.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@Dufftime: Except [[Paranoia]] puts Nocturne in an entire different tier then Trundle. [[Trundle]] is a niche pick because he's easily kited and the positioning his [[Pillar of Filth]] can easily backfire if you don't know what you're doing. You'd only pick him if your team comp has good synergy with him. Nocturne actually fits just about everywhere because he can stand 2000+ distance away and still join a fight late game at a moment's notice, bypass ALL the people defending the enemy MVP, and hard CC with [[Unspeakable Horror]] to perform a perfect initiation. [[Paranoia]] is THAT awesome; when Noct hits level6, craziness happens. When Trundle hits 6 and gets [[Agony]], everyone just nods and continues playing. PsiGuard is right, there's only a few junglers who can replace Nocturne. (when you're dealing with top-tier gameplay) [[Amumu]], [[Lee Sin]], [[Cho'Gath]], [[Gangplank]], and maybe 1~2 others I'm not sure about.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]You overestimate Nocturne's ultimate range. It can barely reach the other side of the lane when you're in the brush near a lane for a gank (it must be like 1k range MAX at rank 1). It got HUGELY nerfed a while ago. You underestimate Trundle. Though he fits into a little bit of a niche role, tanky damage dealer that can jungle, unlike Jarvan (when he was good), who's an off tank that can jungle. He also needs some pretty CC heavy lanes to be able to gank well. Though there aren't many matches where Trundle was used in the IEM as a jungler, I can easily find at least one - [url]http://iemgamescom.leagueoflegends.com/match/semi-final-1-counter-logic-gaming-vs-millenium[/url] Nocturne's a very good pick - don't get me wrong, one of the best, by far, but you tried to make out that Trundle is a bad pick for jungling at top tier gameplay, which is false. Nocturne works in most team comps pretty well, but Trundle's very niche in how he fits into a team. You can't find many other champions with next to no CC, incredible bulk and reasonably high damage, and can jungle incredibly well. Most of the time you need a jungler with reliable CC in high level games, hence why Nocturne or Amumu are used so much, but if your lanes are set up pretty similar to how they were in that one game I linked, for example, with Ashe, Lee and Brand, you have more than enough CC/utility for the laners to do the job CC wise, whilst you're hitting them. Looking at the above match where Millenium didn't use Trundle, they had Amumu, with reliable CC, Anivia, who doesn't have any, Zilean, who has a small amount, and Kog who don't have any.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]Overestimate? You skimmed didn't cha? I said 2000+ range. That's just at rank 1 of the skill. lololololol :P And I'm sorry if it seemed like I was putting down Trundle. He's a very good jungler. He's just a niche pick. Generally speaking, Trundle isn't a "go-to-him-to-win" jungler. (by "generally, speaking," I mean, when you're not a trundle main who plays Trundle better then anything else) Nocturne IS that kind of "go-to" champion. Nocturne works EVERYWHERE. Trundle only works in specific team comps.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis][quote=JunSupport] Overestimate? You skimmed didn't cha? I said 2000+ range. That's just at rank 1 of the skill. lololololol :P [/quote] Far from it - the data on Mobafire is highly outdated. I play Nocturne quite a bit myself. He's a fun jungler because of his ganks. His rank 1 ult will be something like 1k - though I'm unsure of the value. His ult barely stretches across a lane - not that I'm saying it does - but you said, and I quote - "Paranoia is THAT awesome; when Noct hits level6, craziness happens." It really doesn't make his ganks THAT much better. They're better, for sure, but his level 2-5 ganks are just as deadly, if you take into account that people on lanes don't have their ult by that time, too. Nocturne really isn't this sort of "irreplaceable" jungler. He works well in most situations, but excels when lanes don't have a whole lot of CC. Edit: Trundle's really not THAT bad in situations when your lanes don't have a lot of CC, he's like picking Nocturne when they do. Not optimal, but still a very good pick. Neither are a "go-to" jungler, that would be someone like Lee Sin.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]Good point about Mobafire being outdated, but I still said "late game" anyway. Even with the reduced range (which should still be over 1500 if I'm not mistaken), his ganks are spectacular at 6. You can't deny that when playing as or with Nocturne, it's all about waiting for him to hit level6 and things kicking up a notch; and he's still a good ganker pre-6 too. Trundle's good, but still "meh" when compared side-by-side with the eternal nightmare. And, try refreshing the page. I do edits a lot. edit: And whether or not a lane has cc isn't really relevant. I've learned from many games that the smart thing to do in a high-cc lane is get your allies to bait them. They absorb the CC, you move in, block any remaining CC with [[Shroud of Shadows]], and secure the kill easily enough most of the time.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]I'll check what Noc's range is next game, but I'm almost certain it's not going to be more than ~1000 at rank 1. As I mentioned before, his ganks are a little better at 6, but they're really not anything so great that they blow his pre-6 ones out of the water (E.G. Fiddlesticks). Nocturne's the best ganker in the game in my opinion, but that's not ALL because of his R, though it's a contributing factor! You did say late game, I know, but Trundle shouldn't be focussed anyway, so he can trolololol up to your carries through Contaminate! Edit: I didn't mean CC on their side, I meant CC on your team's side, like Millennium's team that I used as an example.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]His rank 1 range is bigger then the screen I believe... 1000 range is within the screen. Nocturne IS a "go-to" champion. Right along with Lee Sin and Amumu. Lee Sin is balanced out by his difficulty level, while Amumu is stands out as a constant ban. edit: Oh, and gangplank too. GP's probably right in the same spot as Nocturne because of those (god dam ****ing) perma-slows.[/quote]

[quote=Xenasis]Depends on how big your screen is and where you're looking, but I know for a fact that it barely reaches the other end of the lane when you're in that brush at the side of a lane for a gank... Countless times people have started before I got near there then complained to me why I didn't R in... Edit: Lee Sin isn't that hard, especially for top tier players, as this discussion was about. His Q isn't that hard to land if you have practice. Noc does fit into any team comp - so does Trundle, but since Trundle's outshined by Nocturne in the opposite to the area he excels at, Noc's better for when your lanes have a lack of CC. Amumu isn't exactly "Go-to", considering his incredible AoE CC, he works primarily on teams with a lot of AoE damage or AoE abilities. However, he is ridiculously OP in the right comp.[/quote]