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Offtank Nocturne

Creator: PsiGuard August 29, 2011 1:29pm
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Searz
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Erm.. No.. It's harder to stack than Warmog, especially because you lose the stacks on death.
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Searz wrote:

Erm.. No.. It's harder to stack than Warmog, especially because you lose the stacks on death.

Sorry, I'm dumb. I still think it isn't a big deal to stack though, since it takes what, 3-4 creep waves? I'd probably get 2 or 3 waves from a push, so the stats would come back pretty quickly. Still, the loss on death is something to consider.
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@Searz:

I don't account for bonus stats on Bloodthirster.

A lot of people would see that as a loss, but I consider it a bonus.
If Bloodthirster is an item up for consideration in a build, I theorycraft only the base 60 AD and 15% life steal. Thus, making any "built up" stats totally sugar on top.

Your argument about how it's bad to lose the stats when you die is why I do not build Bloodthirster earlier on.
The item isn't as cost effective if you can't keep the stats. BUT, late game, when there's nothing else I'll be building, the problem isn't as strategically detrimental.



In short: 60 AD + 15% Life Steal is good late game on Noct. BT stacks aren't that important.
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Searz
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JunSupport wrote:

In short: 60 AD + 15% Life Steal is good late game on Noct. BT stacks aren't that important.

Well, here's the thing..
BT doesn't give good stats without the passive.

It gives 92% of what you pay for.
Most combined items give ~120% of what you pay for.
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@Searz:

If most items give 120%, isn't that a fallacy?

The average should be 100%, meaning you should be considering "most" items as the medium for 100% gold-to-damage ratio. Therefore, most items give "100%" and BT has lower then 92% of its cost.

Though, that has nothing to do with my reasoning, since it would make BT look worse.



Searz, your problem with BT is it's cost effectiveness right?
But what my build NEEDS is more life steal and attack damage.

There is no other item that can supply enough of both these stats. (Well, there's Hextech Gunblade, but that's even less cost-effective to build... I'm very eager to use the Sanguine Blade in Dominion!)

It's a matter of necessity.

I do take cost-effectiveness into account, though. That's why I take it as my final item, when I usually end up with more gold then necessary.
B. F. Sword IS a cost-effective item. And at the end game, there's nothing left to buy besides Elixirs, so wasting a little gold on BT's upgrade is not so big of a deal imo.

Especially if you farm a few creeps before each fight (something inevitable since you have to defend the base) and end up stacking a bit of AD/LS stats.



-The necessity of its stats in the build and on the champion.
-Buying it late game while having excess gold.
-The nature of the time of purchase where creeps are easy to get.
-Having access to the strong cost-effective components first.

I feel these factors far outweigh a cost-effectiveness issue.


That and, you neglect the scenario of not dying. I've played a few games already where I'm careful enough that I do not die late game, win the fight, and succeed in keep my stacks as well as out life-stealing the few people who damage me.
"Luck" deserves a place decision making too.
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JunSupport wrote:

If most items give 120%, isn't that a fallacy?

The average should be 100%, meaning you should be considering "most" items as the medium for 100% gold-to-damage ratio. Therefore, most items give "100%" and BT has lower then 92% of its cost.

Wut?

You've clearly misunderstood bigtime..

With most items you get 20% more stats than you pay for.

BT gives 8% less stats than you pay for.
So you'll essentially pay more money than the stats are worth.
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JunSupport
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Searz wrote:

Wut?

You've clearly misunderstood bigtime..

With most items you get 20% more stats than you pay for.

BT gives 8% less stats than you pay for.
So you'll essentially pay more money than the stats are worth.


No it seems like you misunderstood.


What is your standard for saying most items give 20% more stats?

What item counts as the item that gives 100% stats for it's cost, which is the item you use to compare all other items? Long Sword? Meki Pendant? Amplifying Tome?

AND what makes you so sure that 100%-effectiveness item isn't actually ABOVE in effectiveness and that your standard is too high?

The best way to compare items is by it's distinct difference from the majority.
If most items are 120%, shouldn't they be the standard that is the actual 100%?






Also, what is your rebuttal to my ACTUAL rebuttal regarding Bloodthirster?
You seem very focused on cost-effectiveness. I clearly said that this above subject has nothing to do with my BT reasoning, there's more to choosing the right items then cost-effectiveness.
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First of zerkers when yur building noc as an offtank is just a nono, get merc threads.

The thing with noc is; if you rune him around armorpen and get brutalizer on him then you have all the damage you need for the entire game(get ghostblade when you have enough tanky items) since you will only be focusing the low armor targets. So I'd suggest against wit's end, just get banshee's.
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Not in the early game.

You need the extra attack speed to do well in ganks. Buying Merc's on a ganker/damage-scaling champion that early is a newbie mistake. Building offtank does not mean you should entirely forego offense

You can ride on Shroud of Darkness for avoiding cc. Banshee's Veil is also on my build for a reason.



If necessary, I swap for Mercury's Treads after Randuin's Omen is finished.
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PsiGuard
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Jun, I believe that comment was directed at me. This is my thread, remember? You are right though.

Since my build doesn't feature a ton of AS items early on, berserker's greaves are necessary for DPS and jungle speed. I am well aware of the merits of brutalizer/ghostblade, but I haven't yet found a way to fit it in smoothly into my build. The Black Cleaver gives a lot more DPS, which is why I pick it up late game rather than ghostblade.

I will say though, thank you for actually answering the question I originally posed. Somehow a question about Wit's End turned into an offtank Bloodthirster debate.
Thanks to Nyoike for the sig!
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