The reason they want to "remove" 0 CS support is because all the bad ones do is the equivalent of a health potion.
Actual good ones are more like killing people and protecting the carry.
If they made wards cheaper like you suggested, it's not going to change anything. They'll still get GP/10 items, they'll buy more wards, because now they're cheaper, and nothing much will change other than the fact that you'll have to leave lane to ward more.
Only thing this will encourage is kill lane bot which is already semi-prevalent right now.
lastly, I like playing my support Alistar while legitly trying to steal CS. Keeps my AD carry on their toes. Makes them actually have to focus on the fight instead of "R-click...R-click...R-click..." I also tend to let them tank some shots and then zone the other AD carry while getting my own CS. make me much more a threat later game without really sacrificing too much if I'm doing a good job of zoning, like I do.
Actual good ones are more like killing people and protecting the carry.
If they made wards cheaper like you suggested, it's not going to change anything. They'll still get GP/10 items, they'll buy more wards, because now they're cheaper, and nothing much will change other than the fact that you'll have to leave lane to ward more.
Only thing this will encourage is kill lane bot which is already semi-prevalent right now.
lastly, I like playing my support Alistar while legitly trying to steal CS. Keeps my AD carry on their toes. Makes them actually have to focus on the fight instead of "R-click...R-click...R-click..." I also tend to let them tank some shots and then zone the other AD carry while getting my own CS. make me much more a threat later game without really sacrificing too much if I'm doing a good job of zoning, like I do.
Sig courtesy of GrandmasterD. Go get your own sig from them. :D
Klausenheim
<Member>
<Member>
Support Nunu bot too stronk.
Ok sorry just had to get that out.
On topic:
I don't like the ward/counter ward gameplay. I love the tactical thought process of wards, but as-is they feel like a chore. "Oh, 20 seconds until that wards goes down, time to B and grab a few more to put out."
There's no thought process behind it anymore.
On the other hand, giving permanent vision of the river, or really any other location in SR, would absolutely ruin the game imo. That's just not an option. It kills ganks, it kills counterjungling and jungling, it kills any sort of movement throughout the map. Bad idea.
Here's my proposal:
Each team gets 4 wards to use, on a staggered availability plan.
I.e. you start with 1,
you can get a 2nd ward at the 10 minute mark
a 3rd ward at the 15 minute mark
and a 4th ward at the 25 minute mark (made up numbers).
These wards are permanent. They cannot be moved once placed, they cannot be destroyed by the enemy team.
This retains the tactical aspect of warding (does bottom use 1 ward for dragon, or should they take two and ward both dragon and tri bush? Do we play aggressive and ward their buffs for counterjungling, or play passive and ward more in the river to avoid ganks?
In other wards (hah, get it?), you have to THINK about what your wards are going to do starting from the very beginning of the match. It's no longer a mindless "WARDS WARDS WARDS oracles WARDS WARDS" game. There would also be some incredible mind games with your opponent trying to figure out what locations they have decided to ward, where you are safe to hide and where they can see you and therefore ambush you.
OK, sorry for the wall of text. That is my grand plan for the ward remake.
tl;dr make wards permanent, immovable, indestructible, but with only 4 per team.
Ok sorry just had to get that out.
On topic:
I don't like the ward/counter ward gameplay. I love the tactical thought process of wards, but as-is they feel like a chore. "Oh, 20 seconds until that wards goes down, time to B and grab a few more to put out."
There's no thought process behind it anymore.
On the other hand, giving permanent vision of the river, or really any other location in SR, would absolutely ruin the game imo. That's just not an option. It kills ganks, it kills counterjungling and jungling, it kills any sort of movement throughout the map. Bad idea.
Here's my proposal:
Each team gets 4 wards to use, on a staggered availability plan.
I.e. you start with 1,
you can get a 2nd ward at the 10 minute mark
a 3rd ward at the 15 minute mark
and a 4th ward at the 25 minute mark (made up numbers).
These wards are permanent. They cannot be moved once placed, they cannot be destroyed by the enemy team.
This retains the tactical aspect of warding (does bottom use 1 ward for dragon, or should they take two and ward both dragon and tri bush? Do we play aggressive and ward their buffs for counterjungling, or play passive and ward more in the river to avoid ganks?
In other wards (hah, get it?), you have to THINK about what your wards are going to do starting from the very beginning of the match. It's no longer a mindless "WARDS WARDS WARDS oracles WARDS WARDS" game. There would also be some incredible mind games with your opponent trying to figure out what locations they have decided to ward, where you are safe to hide and where they can see you and therefore ambush you.
OK, sorry for the wall of text. That is my grand plan for the ward remake.
tl;dr make wards permanent, immovable, indestructible, but with only 4 per team.
You can't peddle papooses with a dancing monkey.
Problem with that is, now you have perma-vision of both Baron and Dragon.
Now acing them is a complete necessity to do either unless you can 100->0 it in a couple seconds.
i.e. when you've already won the game at this point unless you're completely stupid.
Now acing them is a complete necessity to do either unless you can 100->0 it in a couple seconds.
i.e. when you've already won the game at this point unless you're completely stupid.
Klausenheim
<Member>
<Member>
If you do choose to have perma ward of baron and dragon, you are going to be getting ganked left and right early / mid game.
I think it would balance out. Choosing to ward those critical areas eventually, obviously that's smart. Choosing to ward those areas at the beginning when you only have 1 ward? Not so much. You can either have dragon control or lane protection early game, and I think the result would be fairly balanced. One team gets an easy dragon, but maybe concedes two deaths bottom lane because of a nice jungle gank. The other team doesn't have dragon early, but they had two early kills.
Still no dice Lugi?
I think it would balance out. Choosing to ward those critical areas eventually, obviously that's smart. Choosing to ward those areas at the beginning when you only have 1 ward? Not so much. You can either have dragon control or lane protection early game, and I think the result would be fairly balanced. One team gets an easy dragon, but maybe concedes two deaths bottom lane because of a nice jungle gank. The other team doesn't have dragon early, but they had two early kills.
Still no dice Lugi?
You can't peddle papooses with a dancing monkey.
Doesn't matter. I'll just play passively.
I play Maokai. The embodiment of passiveness. Once he gets to 5, he just clears caster minion waves and waits until they push to last hit.
Play Shyvana? I can win most duels early level and now all I have to do is watch the map to know if you're coming for me.
And the list goes on. it makes people like Shaco massively overpowered.
You "wasted" your early ward to establish bush control? He now camps the hell out of your lane and you die over, and over, and over, and over. You never get farm ever again and your team perma-loses.
I'd elaborate more but class is about to end and I have to leave. If you want to offer a rebuttal, I will answer it when I can.
I play Maokai. The embodiment of passiveness. Once he gets to 5, he just clears caster minion waves and waits until they push to last hit.
Play Shyvana? I can win most duels early level and now all I have to do is watch the map to know if you're coming for me.
And the list goes on. it makes people like Shaco massively overpowered.
You "wasted" your early ward to establish bush control? He now camps the hell out of your lane and you die over, and over, and over, and over. You never get farm ever again and your team perma-loses.
I'd elaborate more but class is about to end and I have to leave. If you want to offer a rebuttal, I will answer it when I can.
Sig courtesy of GrandmasterD. Go get your own sig from them. :D
Xenasis
<Member>
<Member>
Lugignaf wrote:
Doesn't matter. I'll just play passively.
I play Maokai. The embodiment of passiveness. Once he gets to 5, he just clears caster minion waves and waits until they push to last hit.
Play Shyvana? I can win most duels early level and now all I have to do is watch the map to know if you're coming for me.
And the list goes on. it makes people like Shaco massively overpowered.
You "wasted" your early ward to establish bush control? He now camps the hell out of your lane and you die over, and over, and over, and over. You never get farm ever again and your team perma-loses.
I'd elaborate more but class is about to end and I have to leave. If you want to offer a rebuttal, I will answer it when I can.
Maokai is far from passive, in my opinion. He has no reliable ranged harass/creep killing ability. His Saplings are well and good but you can't spam them all day like GP can, Mao has a small mana pool. Killing all of the minions really fast isn't passive, either.
If you were against someone like Warwick (who IS passive), who would not push his lane by clearing creeps, and will more often than not freeze his lane at the tower, you have to go forward to get last hits or XP in some cases, not to mention the fact that Maokai can't last hit every minion with his E.
Also - in regards to never doing Dragon/Baron unless you've aced/can ace them -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=4dnLEXo_zpI#t=2845s
CLG are a team that often ignore dragons, too. If I recall correctly they ignored two dragons before that clip that game, and Curse basically didn't have to fight for them.
If they're out of position, and can't contest since they're not there, by all means, take it. Curse did this multiple times.
I would honestly AFK if Lugi "supported" me.
http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/build/duffs-336706
Come hang out when I'm streaming! http://www.twitch.tv/dufftime
Lugignaf wrote:
lastly, I like playing my support Alistar while legitly trying to steal CS. Keeps my AD carry on their toes. Makes them actually have to focus on the fight instead of "R-click...R-click...R-click..." I also tend to let them tank some shots and then zone the other AD carry while getting my own CS. make me much more a threat later game without really sacrificing too much if I'm doing a good job of zoning, like I do.
DuffTime wrote:
I would honestly AFK if Lugi "supported" me.
LOL that was priceless. I'm pretty sure Lugi only does that with random AD scrubs, not premades.
Or maybe he does. In which case I'd better make sure he stays in top lane. :P
Thanks to Jovy for the sig!
NicknameMy wrote:
Riot said they want to remove the 0 farm supports, this would solve that.
It's 100% not possible with heros the way they are.
Until we start getting durations of CC's scaling with AP/AD and w/e, we won't be seeing 0 cs go anywhere.
Tri lane for life.
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They're not too powerful, some people, including me, find them fun to play, and they're in a good spot. You'd practically have to reinvent a metagame if you removed them.
People would still support if wards didn't exist, it would just likely be a roaming support like what M5 occasionally does (as solo lanes are usually for the better). I have no idea why you'd want to kill the class of champion, though...