Tanky supporters not tanky :s ? Dafuq.

[quote=Blood26]So.. I got this off the net. http://www.solomid.net/guides.php?g=20638 One example of a tanky supporter, [[Leona]]. It pains me to see Xpecial label every darn female champs out in the LoL roster as Supports. Infuriates me even further that his entire masteries are based on Utility when Leona is supposed to be focusing on Defense. Literally a 0/21/9 built, even a 0/14/16 is better than a 0/4/26 built. Even in his AP carry guides, he doesn't acknowledge AP champions as AP carry, merely calling them Gankers >.> Enough about Xpecial, I know he's good, but he's generally not in my favor. Although I will admit he knows his stuff. Tanky supports on bot, how do you even become tanky when you have to let your AD carry farm ? I've seen tons of tanky supporters go bot lane, and ended up becoming a full-fledged supporter, with no tankiness at all. For an example, earlier on this evening, I had a Leona at bot, by late game, that Leona only had about 1.8k of HP, which is so meager when the rest of the APs are already on 2k health. Later on, an [[Alistar ] ]who can barely tank too, 2.5k, just a difference of 500 hp if compared with your typical AP mids. Means a whole lot of difference you might say, but when clashes happen, that Alistar will be running in circles trying to save his ass while the squishies actually take the hits for him. I'm curious as to why no tanky supporters even go for [[Warmog]]. I see almost all of them taking [[Shurelya's Reverie]], [[Aegis of the Legion]] and [[Locket of the Iron Solari]] plus a 5th item which is either a [[Randuin's Omen]], [[Banshee's Veil]] or [[Zeke's Herald]], and the last slot is always meant for wards. Are these for the purpose of making the tank seem more "inviting" ? In other words, you want your enemies to think that your tank is squishy or else the enemy team learns to ignore the tank ? What are the other reasons that no tanks ever go for Warmog anyway ? Anyone care to explain me to usage of [[Greater Quintessence of Avarice]] too ? The tradeoff for 1 gold every 10 seconds doesn't seem inviting to me. I rather opt for a health quint. One of the reasons I found on the net states that every bot supports should get Avarice Quints because bot laners are generally passive and hang out for a longer period of time doing nothing but trading pokes and harassments. I disagree with this. With good teamwork and having junglers coming in to gank, you should have bot lanes pushed up pretty well compared to Mid and Top Lanes. Then again, because I don't play support, I wouldn't have much to say, it is merely a speculation of mine. My purpose of opening this thread is due to the fact that I'm interested in picking up a role in tanking because no one Garena cares about protecting your carries. And I have my eyes set of Leona. But seeing how people build her with supportive item kinda makes me feel like dropping the idea of even tanking in the first place. I understand the term of tanky supporter, being tanky and bringing team utilities are one of them traits a tanky sp needs to have. But shouldn't every tank at the very least, have some high-hp providing item like a Warmog ? With Warmog, you can easily get 900hp, that's essentially squeezing in 2 items in to 1. I don't find auras beneficial, by then, aura or not. Most of your teammates will have items that boosts up certain stats that are important to them. Carrying aura items on you for the sake of your teammate is just like an extra icing topped on to the cake, whatever auras your team gets from you is just a bonus. You can't expect your supports to be providing with items that boosts up your stats because that's your own job in the first place.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]What do you mean "full fledged supporter" in terms of itemization? You need the 0/9/21 (or variables) for stable gold and experience, you don't wanna be further behind. Also, I don't know how you see [[Taric]] or [[Leona]] supports not being tanky, seeing as I always run [[Shurelya's Reverie]] and [[Randuin's Omen]] on both nearly no matter what. This alone already gives you some very decent tankyness. Warmog's is not a necessity on tanky supports. It costs WAAAAY too much for what it gives (hp to yourself, and you shouldn't be the enemy target coz if you are they be dumb). Much rather, you got some really nice auras such as [[Abyssal Scepter]] (which even with the new range goes well because both taric and leona are melee and kinda meant to enter the fray), [[frozen heart]] (which gives a shit ton of armor and nice CDR), [[Aegis of the legion]], etc. You seem to believe HP = tankyness, which is not at all the case. HP is useful if you already have good resistances and you may need to stack more if they have true damage bitches like [[Olaf]] or [[darius]] (not really that great versus [[Vayne]]), or maybe if there's a lot of AoE ap damage going on so you can soak it better.[/quote]

[quote=astrolia]HP = Tankiness? "I don't play support, but..."? "Xpecial labels every female as a support"? Is this topic for real?[/quote]

[quote=TheJohn][[Greater Quintessence of Avarice]] isn't a perfect choice imo, and you'd need many runes to get at least 5gp/10sec, the common amount for the items So I have to agree with you, I'd choose HP, armor, MR, maybe CDR I don't really see the point of getting [[Warmog's Armor]] on a support or tanky support. It doesn't help the team, and that's the main idea of supporting. I would buy warmogs if I picked a tank, but since I'm supporting, those aura items are better. Why so? Both [[Alistar]] and [[Leona]] have a skill that makes them tanky, and aegis and frozen heart are great aura items that gives you some defense as well After reading what you said, I started to think that you are picking tanks to really tank, and not to support. But keep something in mid: you are the one who decides how you play. If you play differently, and it does work, so it's ok[/quote]

[quote=Blood26][quote=FalseoGod] What do you mean "full fledged supporter" in terms of itemization? You need the 0/9/21 (or variables) for stable gold and experience, you don't wanna be further behind. Also, I don't know how you see [[Taric]] or [[Leona]] supports not being tanky, seeing as I always run [[Shurelya's Reverie]] and [[Randuin's Omen]] on both nearly no matter what. This alone already gives you some very decent tankyness. Warmog's is not a necessity on tanky supports. It costs WAAAAY too much for what it gives (hp to yourself, and you shouldn't be the enemy target coz if you are they be dumb). Much rather, you got some really nice auras such as [[Abyssal Scepter]] (which even with the new range goes well because both taric and leona are melee and kinda meant to enter the fray), [[frozen heart]] (which gives a shit ton of armor and nice CDR), [[Aegis of the legion]], etc. You seem to believe HP = tankyness, which is not at all the case. HP is useful if you already have good resistances and you may need to stack more if they have true damage bitches like [[Olaf]] or [[darius]] (not really that great versus [[Vayne]]), or maybe if there's a lot of AoE ap damage going on so you can soak it better. [/quote] I don't think tankyness = HP. But I believe HP is the best trait that describes tankyness. I generally don't go for enemies with high MR or Def if I was a carry. My point being, yes, its true that MR and Def describes Tankyness better, but if enemies find it hard to peel any hp off from you, no matter how high your stats are, you're going to get ignored at the very end. Thus, I prefer more HP. You can have tons of HP and enemies can still be tempted to lay their hands on you because they know you may be big, but you're not tough. I see your point of view, although I don't see how 0/9/21 helps in being tanky. @Astrolia Yes, this thread is for real. Or else, I wouldn't even think of asking for opinions in public in the first place. I have a thing against Xpecial because he reminds me of a typical Dota player who labels female characters as anything but carries. If you're an Xpecial fanboy, feel free to not post anything at all. You have a choice. @TheJohn I agree with you, in the end, it all boils down to personal playstyles. You can be given the best guide for a champion and still fail performing well because your personal playstyle doesn't go well with the guide. Therefore, partially one of the reason why I prefer more HP is to compensate for my carelessness and my tendency to linger around combat. When clashes happen, I tend to lose sight of my champion, and I believe that the few extra hit points will allow me to survive for a few seconds in order for me to spot my champion again :3.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]Enemies, specially at lower elo, are actually drawn to those who seem to have less HP. They are also often drawn to supports (OMG FREE JANNA WOO) because supports are supposed to suck due to not farming. Either way, building flat HP brings nothing for the team. If they become tempted to focus you and do so, you will probably go down without contributing to the fight at all, and this doesn't mean they will lose it just because they focused you. As for 0/9/21, it's not a matter of tankyness; you need the heightned exp so you can keep close to your team in terms of level, and also because of how it reduces your SR's CD and the gold it provides. If I sacrifice it, I might become further behind that if I went 0/21/9[/quote]

[quote=Babit]shureylia, aegis, and randuins DO make you tanky. They also drop your cdr considerably. Gp/10 quints AND utilities can be explained by this. Between quints and masteries you have a free equivalent of a Philo stone (regen included) at the very beginning of the game.[/quote]

[quote=throatslasher][quote=Blood26] 1. It pains me to see Xpecial label every darn female champs out in the LoL roster as Supports. 2. Infuriates me even further that his entire masteries are based on Utility when Leona is supposed to be focusing on Defense. Literally a 0/21/9 built, even a 0/14/16 is better than a 0/4/26 built. 3. Tanky supports on bot, how do you even become tanky when you have to let your AD carry farm ? I've seen tons of tanky supporters go bot lane, and ended up becoming a full-fledged supporter, with no tankiness at all. 4. For an example, earlier on this evening, I had a Leona at bot, by late game, that Leona only had about 1.8k of HP, which is so meager when the rest of the APs are already on 2k health. 5. Later on, an [[Alistar ] ]who can barely tank too, 2.5k, just a difference of 500 hp if compared with your typical AP mids. Means a whole lot of difference you might say, but when clashes happen, that Alistar will be running in circles trying to save his ass while the squishies actually take the hits for him. 6. I'm curious as to why no tanky supporters even go for [[Warmog]]. I see almost all of them taking [[Shurelya's Reverie]], [[Aegis of the Legion]] and [[Locket of the Iron Solari]] plus a 5th item which is either a [[Randuin's Omen]], [[Banshee's Veil]] or [[Zeke's Herald]], and the last slot is always meant for wards. 7. Are these for the purpose of making the tank seem more "inviting" ? In other words, you want your enemies to think that your tank is squishy or else the enemy team learns to ignore the tank ? What are the other reasons that no tanks ever go for Warmog anyway ? 8. Anyone care to explain me to usage of [[Greater Quintessence of Avarice]] too ? The tradeoff for 1 gold every 10 seconds doesn't seem inviting to me. I rather opt for a health quint. One of the reasons I found on the net states that every bot supports should get Avarice Quints because bot laners are generally passive and hang out for a longer period of time doing nothing but trading pokes and harassments. I disagree with this. With good teamwork and having junglers coming in to gank, you should have bot lanes pushed up pretty well compared to Mid and Top Lanes. 9. Then again, because I don't play support, I wouldn't have much to say, it is merely a speculation of mine. My purpose of opening this thread is due to the fact that I'm interested in picking up a role in tanking because no one Garena cares about protecting your carries. And I have my eyes set of Leona. But seeing how people build her with supportive item kinda makes me feel like dropping the idea of even tanking in the first place. 10. I understand the term of tanky supporter, being tanky and bringing team utilities are one of them traits a tanky sp needs to have. But shouldn't every tank at the very least, have some high-hp providing item like a Warmog ? With Warmog, you can easily get 900hp, that's essentially squeezing in 2 items in to 1. I don't find auras beneficial, by then, aura or not. Most of your teammates will have items that boosts up certain stats that are important to them. Carrying aura items on you for the sake of your teammate is just like an extra icing topped on to the cake, whatever auras your team gets from you is just a bonus. You can't expect your supports to be providing with items that boosts up your stats because that's your own job in the first place. [/quote] 1. What? 2. Leona shouldn't focus on defense. She has a godly defensive steroid by maxing her shield. You also get plenty of defensive items in the form of gp10 and aegis. 3. Almost all supports have some defense steroid. Nunu consume, taric shatter, soraka armor buff/heal, sona heal/defense steroid, leona shield, alistar heal, lulu shield/MS, janna shield/knockback/heal/cc. The point of 0 cs supports is they can be effective with little/no money. Your money comes from towers, dragons, assits, and most importantly, gold generation. 4. Then she wasn't building right. I don't know leona's base values, but with shurelyas, HoG, and aegis, she should have plenty of health and defense. Don't forget about that shield. Resists > health 5. Alistar, barely tank? He can press 1 button and become invulnerable for like 8 seconds. He's the supreme support tank. He is the best tower diver IN. THE. GAME. 6. Warmogs is too expensive. As a 0 cs support, you should finish 1 big item, or 2 small items. You'll either have like 2gp10 shurelyas frozen heart, or 2 gp10, aegis, and parts of frozen heart. You also won't get the cs or kills to stack it, making it a complete waste. 7. The enemey team should be ignoring you anyways. Any damage they put on you that isn't aoe is damage that isn't being put on your carries, which is good. If you're a tank/support, that is. supports that should live every teamfight: janna, sona, soraka supports that it's ok to die with in a fight: alistar ulted, leona, blitz, taric etc 8. Flat health is a shitty tank stat. Resists are better. Gold quints allow you to generate gold to buy items. Since you're a 0 cs support, you will fall behind really hard goldwise. gold quints allow you to get your gp10 items faster, which allow you to get your 1-2 items faster. avarice is a must on support. 9. I've explaineded every question you're raised. If you don't think it's for you, don't do it. But the pro support players know what they're talking about. Do what they do, and you'll be building optimally. Don't do what they do, and you'll be wasting your gold/time. Support build and runes are one of those things that can't be theorycrafted. The meta is the only thing that works. 10. Flat hp is a shitty tanking stat. I'd rather have aegis than warmogs. Only thing flat hp counters is true damage. So your adcarry is supposed to be getting defense anyways, so aegis is unnecessary? BS. Your carries are supposed to be building glass cannon. It's your job to make them tanky with aegis and keep them safe with your spells. Or jump on their carries. w/e It's pretty clear you don't have a grasp of what supporting actually entails. I suggest you watch some tournament games with pro teams. Keep an eye out for where they ward, how they engage, what they buy, etc. warmogs is, hands down, the shittiest thing you could build on a 0 cs support.[/quote]

[quote=Anastasios]Actually, supports turn pretty tanky imo, getting enough HP from all their items ([[shuerlya's reverie]], [[aegis of the legion]], [[zeke's herald]], [[locket of the iron solari]], [[randuin's omen]] et cetera), plus some of them get resistances/defenses from their abilities ([[shatter]], [[eclipse]]], [[unbreakable will]], [[mana barrier]], [[aria of preservance]]).[/quote]

[quote=astrolia][quote=Blood26]@Astrolia Yes, this thread is for real. Or else, I wouldn't even think of asking for opinions in public in the first place. I have a thing against Xpecial because he reminds me of a typical Dota player who labels female characters as anything but carries. If you're an Xpecial fanboy, feel free to not post anything at all. You have a choice. [/quote] Well, "Xpecial labels every female character as a support" has multiple implications to it. One implication being that Leona is "supposed" to be played as a non-support, but since Xpecial "labels every female character as support", he plays her as a support. Another implication being Xpecial literally plays every female character as a support...[/quote]