Throatslasher's list of champs that aren't viable

[quote=The Overmyynd]500 damage, ive seen. Not anything higher than that. Im sure its possible, but it requires nearly a full build. Plus, shrooms aren't really a reliable form of damage.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=The Overmyynd] 500 damage, ive seen. Not anything higher than that. Im sure its possible, but it requires nearly a full build. Plus, shrooms aren't really a reliable form of damage. [/quote] [[Noxious Trap]] - as you can see it does 600 base with a .8 ratio at rank 3 (level 16). So I'm not really sure how you've only seen shrooms hit for 500. I'm guessing you've never played against AP teemo. If you're good at placing shrooms they're reliable, i mean it's not exactly hard to place shrooms effectively.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]I use them for loads of stuff, including hitting people over walls :3[/quote]

[quote=Yagamoth]I currently am too lazy to read the whole thread of 7 pages. I'm sure, a few things are already mentioned, and overall the list does make sense. That's why I'll make sure to include proper reasoning on points where I disagree :) I will also not comment on things I "think" I know things about, such as Malzahar, but don't actually play it. I'll simply comment on the Champions I'm absolutely certain about my reasoning. Not saying I can't be wrong, but I'd require a solid proof ^^ Sidenote: Karma -> It's sadly not only Karma support. Also AP Karma is blatantly outdone by an Orianna [quote=throatslasher] Nasus --> Anyone else [I love nasus, he's my favotie top, but it's hard to deny that he has a bad matchup against EVERY SINGLE OTHER TOP LANER. He has infinite potential, but he loses laning phase to literally everyone.] [/quote] That's what I used to think too. But then I came to realize, that Nasus can adjust to about every single enemy in multiple ways, you simply have to realize the potential. What do I mean by that?... I'll try to make it short. Nasus is by no means weak early game. The Main problem most people have when playing Nasus, is not retaliating when harassed. They get hit and do nothing in response. "Why shouldn't I simply keep hitting Nasus? I have nothing to fear..". While Nasus' damage isn't as high as other Champions early game, the innate lifesteal makes up for that for the most part. You don't equip Nasus like any other Bruiser. His optimal runes are fairly unique. He strongly benefits from Lifesteal quints, Armor Pen reds and/or quints. Lifesteal quints are incredibly potent combined with some Dorans Blades. For many Champions it becomes almost impossible to harass a Nasus at this point. Further, ever read the description of his ultimate? The AD boost is insane and ever growing as long as the ultimate lasts... If you stand in the middle of enemy minions, it's even higher. If your lane opponent makes the mistake and wants to fight you despite the ultimate, you can calmly wait until he tries to run and THEN use Wither - he won't escape (unless you need Wither for the attack speed slow). Also, Nasus is excellent to assist jungler ganks. The slow is incredibly strong, there are only few other Champions that have such a strong assist-tool (ranged, targetted, strong slow). While Nasus has other problems, he by no means loses to everyone. Played to his strengths, he actually beats most opponents :) [quote=throatslasher] Poppy [Poppy is unique, nobody is like her. She is a FANTASTIC late game anti-carry, but that's the only time she shines. She has a horrible laning phase, and has bad matchups against EVERYONE (except nasus LOL) I love poppy, I consider her one of my mains, but she's in desperate need of a buff.] [/quote] Again, Poppy has a fair amount of strong matchups. While I consider her to be a generally weak laner, if you play her potential correctly, you will reach the critical point of Trinity force (or Sheen + DFG) fairly well. Do you know how much AD and Armor you receive by putting 1 point into her W? If you consider her passive, there is probably no Champion that could duel her at level 1. Even further down into the laning phase these two passives are incredibly strong. She can not really outlane any opponent (no pushing potential, barely any chase option). But she has the potential to kill them if they don't pay attention. In my opinion, her strength is killing careless opponents, and she can never be killed during the laning phase if played correctly. While this technically does not qualify as "beating an opponent", her lategame potential makes up for that. [quote=throatslasher] AP teemo [just don't do it. it's funny, but terrible] [/quote] Well, until recently I was under that impression as well. But at some point you have to realize, that not everything is about laning phase and team fights. Actually, he is even a fairly strong laner.. AP Teemo is weak in direct encounters, that consist of more than a few seconds. But if you (and your team!) understand this and avoid direct encounters, his potential grows really high. The strength is, that no opponent can rush towards you. They have to clean up the Mushrooms. But you can place Mushrooms in positions, where they can't clean them with oracles before getting too near. If you pick him into an enemy team that does not have any shields or strong tanks (Shen, Lee Sin), his presence (or more like: his mushrooms) can be devastating to them. Only problem is, to get enough control over certain areas, to set up the Mushrooms. Again, similar to Nasus, he has to be played differently from any other Champion - including the whole team. I'd actually say, AP Teemo has a lot of potential in organized 5v5 matches. You simply have to build your team comp around him. Optimally you have a Champion that can clean up.[/quote]

[quote=I post stuff]AP Teemo can turn his entire team into Singeds.[/quote]

[quote=Embracing]Agree with most except Akali and AP Yi IMO those aren't "aren't viable" they do fulfill a different playstyle then the ones you listed. Rest I agree. I'd like to add on that Annie is basically an on/off switch. You either go in and blow everything to kill someone or you just stay out of it which is a big issue when compared to other mages who actually can disengage properly.[/quote]

[quote=throatslasher]"Karma -> It's sadly not only Karma support. Also AP Karma is blatantly outdone by an Orianna" apples to oranges. orianna is a straight mage, karma is a mage/support. The abilities she can lend as a second support to your adc is too strong to ignore. level 6 chains and shields+heals will make your adc TRUE TERROR. orianna is not support at all. her ult is ineffective at peeling, and her shield is just ok, but you don't want to leave the ball on your ally, so the small shield it offers is negligible. "Nasus is by no means weak early game." As someone who has played hundreds of nasus games, I can tell you this is false, ESPECIALLY TODAY. I use to play nasus pre-olaf, and he had a tough time even then. Now, he has no good matchups, and can NOT WIN TRADES with any traditional tops atm. Nasus has more hard counters in the game than anyone. I appreciate that he has a built in exhaust, and it's super useful, but not very useful against a lot of champions. Also, he has no mobility, and picking nasus for top is like ringing a dinner bell for the enemy jungler. hardcounters: akali, vlad, cho'gath, gangplank, garen, irelia, jayce, jax, kayle, OLAF, RIVEN, RUMBLE, swain, and udyr will eventually dump on you with a couple items. "Again, Poppy has a fair amount of strong matchups" yes, I know poppy can press w and get 15 armor. big whoop. Say hello to true damage tops. poppy gets CRUSHED by range, and she gets CRUSHED by wits end. She loses to champs with sustain, shields, range, true damage, cc, or incremental damage. Take that for what it's worth. "there is probably no Champion that could duel her at level 1" olaf poppy is extremely easy to kill in lane. a mini-ghost is not enough mobility. "not everything is about laning phase and team fights." then what IS everything about? if someone sucks in laning phase and team fights, why pick them? what else can you offer to a team? The reason AP teemo is shit is because not only does he fall off EXTREMELY HARD, his build will make him so not tanky that he will be unable to contribute anything to teamfights, and once they realize you're running double ap comp, they'll build MR. The other reason why AP teemo is garbage is because on-hit/bruiser teemo is 1000 times stronger. I mean, I can play dr. mundo as a support, but since he's one of the best junglers in the game as well as being junky as a support, support mundo is not viable. "Agree with most except akali and AP yi...they do fulfill a different playstyle then the ones you listed." They have terrible laning phases and are easily countered by the most common of picks. They have no chance of having a successful laning phase against smart opponents, and they will fall apart in teamfights to exhaust and pink wards. As far as ap assassins go, there are better options.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=Crows foot] How do you build him then Temz? [/quote] Malady, Abyssal, Lich Bane, Frozen Mallet, Sorc Shoes, Deathcap, not in that order.[/quote]

[quote=throatslasher][quote=Temzilla] [quote=Crows foot] How do you build him then Temz? [/quote] Malady, Abyssal, Lich Bane, Frozen Mallet, Sorc Shoes, Deathcap, not in that order. [/quote] can you guys go to one of the bajillion teemo threads to talk about ap teemo? the case has been argued if he's effective already.[/quote]