Brutilizer - Why are AD Carries rushing this?

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Jebus McAzn] I've been watching OGN Winter and the only time I've seen any AD carry rush Brutalizer is when a team is playing [[Miss Fortune]], in which case they do it almost 100% of the time. No team has played Draven so far in the quarterfinals, and the only reason why MF is so popular is because of a very powerful bug involving her [[Bullet Time]] that immediately stacks [[The Black Cleaver]] up to four stacks on the first hit. Even without the bug, you're applying the full AoE shred within at most one second, and with the huge surge in popularity of AD champions mid like [[Jarvan IV]], [[Jayce]], [[Kha'Zix]], combined with the Koreans' newfound interest in [[Zed]], Miss Fortune is now more of a mid/late-game utility AD instead of all-out early game aggression. [/quote] No no Jebus, you're wrong. Look at the numbers. We are all wrong! Thanks to jhoi and her genius of a boyfriend. Although, I love the fact you made an effort writing this comment. For that I +rep and thank you.[/quote]

[quote=Warlemming][quote=Jebus McAzn] The only reason why MF is so popular is because of a very powerful bug involving her [[Bullet Time]] that immediately stacks [[The Black Cleaver]] up to four stacks on the first hit.[/quote] With a bug like that, I can 100% see why you'd build a Cleaver on MF, full shred instantly, and I agree, even without the bug, and in a high physical damage comp, MF's ult would be good. [quote=GrandmasterD] Technically, Draven's Q has a scaling of 0.45%-0.85% (depending on rank) which is an incredibly low scaling. Also, if you count Wicked Blades, The Brutalizer beats BF in damage output on Draven.[/quote] Still wrong. With AD runes (since it's been established that Arpen favours BF), 21 offense, and comparing a Brutalizer vs a BF Sword, Draven has 111/126 AD at level 5 (Assuming he shops then. And if we're going to compare higher levels, it doesn't make much difference). His passive deals 50 damage. We'll even assume for this example that Draven only has 1 point in his Q, even though more points also favours pure AD more. An opponent with 16AR takes: BF Sword: (126AD*1.45 Q Modifier +50) x 0.911 (16AR*0.92-5) = 233*0.911 = 212 damage Brutal: (111AD*1.45 Q Modifier +50) and penetrates all armour = 211 damage An opponent with 32 AR takes: BF Sword: 233 (Damage) x 0.804 (Armour) = 187 Brutal: 211 (Damage) x 0.874 (Armour) = 184 This gap widens as Armour increases[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Warlemming] [quote=Jebus McAzn] The only reason why MF is so popular is because of a very powerful bug involving her [[Bullet Time]] that immediately stacks [[The Black Cleaver]] up to four stacks on the first hit.[/quote] With a bug like that, I can 100% see why you'd build a Cleaver on MF, full shred instantly, and I agree, even without the bug, and in a high physical damage comp, MF's ult would be good. [quote=GrandmasterD] Technically, Draven's Q has a scaling of 0.45%-0.85% (depending on rank) which is an incredibly low scaling. Also, if you count Wicked Blades, The Brutalizer beats BF in damage output on Draven.[/quote] Still wrong. With AD runes (since it's been established that Arpen favours BF), 21 offense, and comparing a Brutalizer vs a BF Sword, Draven has 111/126 AD at level 5 (Assuming he shops then. And if we're going to compare higher levels, it doesn't make much difference). His passive deals 50 damage. We'll even assume for this example that Draven only has 1 point in his Q, even though more points also favours pure AD more. An opponent with 16AR takes: BF Sword: (126AD*1.45 Q Modifier +50) x 0.911 (16AR*0.92-5) = 233*0.911 = 212 damage Brutal: (111AD*1.45 Q Modifier +50) and penetrates all armour = 211 damage An opponent with 32 AR takes: BF Sword: 233 (Damage) x 0.804 (Armour) = 187 Brutal: 211 (Damage) x 0.874 (Armour) = 184 This gap widens as Armour increases [/quote] And closes as you level [[Spinning Axe]]. You aren't the only one who can do maths, you know? But apparently I'm an idiot. Now that we are speaking of this. Can you help me solving n^k = k^n? I mean, I was going to do it myself but well...[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]It's good on some champions, [[Draven]] and [[Miss Fortune]] come to mind. It's probably pretty strong on [[Graves]] too. I haven't really seen the math for [[Graves]] on the [[Last Whisper]] vs. [[The Black Cleaver]] debate, but I imagine [[The Black Cleaver]] is significantly closer to [[Last Whisper]] in terms of numbers than it was in Season 2. I've heard [[Last Whisper]]'s cost is getting increased so we may see more [[Graves]] players going TBC. AS far as Draven and MF, both seem better than the ArPen counterpart of Last Whisper but again, I haven't seen hard numbers[/quote]

[quote=Warlemming][quote=GrandmasterD] And closes as you level [[Spinning Axe]]. You aren't the only one who can do maths, you know? But apparently I'm an idiot. Now that we are speaking of this. Can you help me solving n^k = k^n? I mean, I was going to do it myself but well... [/quote] Apparently you can't do maths, because it widens as you level [[Spinning Axe]]. More points in Spinning Axe increases the %Damage of your AD, and does nothing to the strength of his passive. This means that the passive itself has a smaller impact on the overall result. With level 3 [[Spinning Axe]] Opponent with 16AR: BF Sword: (126AD*1.65 Q Modifier +50) x 0.911 (16AR*0.92-5) = 258*0.911 = 235 damage Brutal: (111AD*1.65 Q Modifier +50) and penetrates all armour = 233 damage 0.8% advantage to BF sword, compared to 0.47% for level 1 Q Opponent with 32 AR: BF Sword: 258 (Damage) x 0.804 (Armour) = 207.5 Brutal: 233 (Damage) x 0.874 (Armour) = 203.5 1.96% advantage compared to 1.63% advantage for level 1 Q Heading back to work now, so won't be able to reply for a while.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Mooninites] It's good on some champions, [[Draven]] and [[Miss Fortune]] come to mind. It's probably pretty strong on [[Graves]] too. I haven't really seen the math for [[Graves]] on the [[Last Whisper]] vs. [[The Black Cleaver]] debate, but I imagine [[The Black Cleaver]] is significantly closer to [[Last Whisper]] in terms of numbers than it was in Season 2. I've heard [[Last Whisper]]'s cost is getting increased so we may see more [[Graves]] players going TBC. AS far as Draven and MF, both seem better than the ArPen counterpart of Last Whisper but again, I haven't seen hard numbers [/quote] It seems solid on Graves as well yes and the health goes nicely with his passive.[/quote]

[quote=OTGBionicArm]So, on [[Draven]] would you guys say [[The Black Cleaver]] is a replacement for [[Last Whisper]] or [[Infinity Edge]]? I honestly haven't had a game go past [[The Bloodthirster]], [[The Black Cleaver]] and [[Phantom Dancer]].[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Warlemming] [quote=GrandmasterD] And closes as you level [[Spinning Axe]]. You aren't the only one who can do maths, you know? But apparently I'm an idiot. Now that we are speaking of this. Can you help me solving n^k = k^n? I mean, I was going to do it myself but well... [/quote] Apparently you can't do maths, because it widens as you level [[Spinning Axe]]. More points in Spinning Axe increases the %Damage of your AD, and does nothing to the strength of his passive. This means that the passive itself has a smaller impact on the overall result. With level 3 [[Spinning Axe]] Opponent with 16AR: BF Sword: (126AD*1.65 Q Modifier +50) x 0.911 (16AR*0.92-5) = 258*0.911 = 235 damage Brutal: (111AD*1.65 Q Modifier +50) and penetrates all armour = 233 damage 0.8% advantage to BF sword, compared to 0.47% for level 1 Q Opponent with 32 AR: BF Sword: 258 (Damage) x 0.804 (Armour) = 207.5 Brutal: 233 (Damage) x 0.874 (Armour) = 203.5 1.96% advantage compared to 1.63% advantage for level 1 Q Heading back to work now, so won't be able to reply for a while. [/quote] No I'm a fucking retard indeed. I hope you can look at pictures better than typing on your calculator: [img=http://i.imgur.com/aSAqW.png] [color=#5555BB]Brutalizer[/color] [color=#BB0000]B.F. Sword[/color] Damage of Draven's [[Spinning Axe]] at level 9 (rank 5) including [[Wicked Blades]]. The gap widens for very low armour values, yes but not for decent armour values your opponents will be having at that point in the game. Try to understand game mechanics rather than picking numbers which support your theory.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=GrandmasterD] No I'm a fucking retard indeed. I hope you can look at pictures better than typing on your calculator. Try to understand game mechanics rather than picking numbers which support your theory. [/quote] Nick, how unworthy of you. There's no need for malicious words over theory crafting math, you sink really low to attack someone who can't even reply due to being at work. Michael uses Excel to create his own graphs, and when he gets home, I'm sure he'll give you a look at how he calculated things. Please continue this discussion in an orderly and civil manner, as opposed to shoving insults around an online forum as if you have no self control. Also, Michael never disagreed with Jebus; he didn't know about the MF bug, and even said as much in his post.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=GrandmasterD] No I'm a fucking retard indeed. I hope you can look at pictures better than typing on your calculator. Try to understand game mechanics rather than picking numbers which support your theory. [/quote] Nick, how unworthy of you. There's no need for malicious words over theory crafting math, you sink really low to attack someone who can't even reply due to being at work. Michael uses Excel to create his own graphs, and when he gets home, I'm sure he'll give you a look at how he calculated things. Please continue this discussion in an orderly and civil manner, as opposed to shoving insults around an online forum as if you have no self control. Also, Michael never disagreed with Jebus; he didn't know about the MF bug, and even said as much in his post. [/quote] I never insulted him; he implicitly calls me stupid and I am not fond of that, read before you respond. Also, I can post at any time I want. That'd mean you can't respond to me during the day and I can't respond to you during my day because it'd be low to respond to someone who is asleep, right? If I'm wrong, I'm wrong; sure so be it. However, if he just randomly picks values which are completely unrealistic (16 armour at level 5?! Most champion's base armour at level one is around that) just so he can publicly humiliate me, I get mad. So who is being unworthy and low? P.S. Makes me wonder, what exactly am I unworthy of?[/quote]