Brutilizer - Why are AD Carries rushing this?

[quote=Warlemming][quote=Khazem] why is this even a discussion lol they're 2 different items rushed in different situations, we really don't need any math [/quote] The discussion was because they are not run in 2 different situations. Both items are picked purely to increase your damage output. The only different situation is if you're getting fast BC for shred reasons, and not for your own damage. If it's for just how much damage your AD Carry can do, then this discussion is relevant Anyway, we can put this to rest now. I talked to GrandmasterD, we sorted out the problem, just end it.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=The_Nameless_Bard] she's just offended that you called her friend out. on topic, I agree with what has been said several times already in this thread, math is only PART of playing this game. You can do plenty of math and still be wrong part of the time. I was mainly offended due to the fact that everyone was quick to think War was wrong, except Night, who also ran the math, which I appreciated. [/quote] But he wasn't wrong. Nick's graph and values were wrong all along. [quote=luther3000]I don't have much to add here and I can't really be bothered with all this maths over something that should be pretty obvious, but I would like to point out that GMD is actually studying for a degree in the subject so he should know what he's talking about.[/quote] And yet his math was wrong, Michael found the coding error within Nick's math and fixed it. So what are you saying is "pretty obvious", seeing as Warlemming was actually right all along? [/quote] In my rush I made a silly mistake regarding the [[Draven]] specific values, shit happens but we should all understand that this is a purely mathematical thing and has little to do with gameplay mechanics. People should understand that the maths done by warlemming raised an interesting question which was then answered by people such as Astrolia who mains AD carries. It'd be nice for them if you respect their answer and knowledge on the game instead of pointing to numbers again because that's just a slap in the face for them and it only shows disrespect towards their skill, level and amount of time they put into the game.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Warlemming] [quote=Khazem] why is this even a discussion lol they're 2 different items rushed in different situations, we really don't need any math [/quote] The discussion was because they are not run in 2 different situations. Both items are picked purely to increase your damage output. The only different situation is if you're getting fast BC for shred reasons, and not for your own damage. If it's for just how much damage your AD Carry can do, then this discussion is relevant Anyway, we can put this to rest now. I talked to GrandmasterD, we sorted out the problem, just end it. [/quote] Pretty much this. We both had different answers to the same problem which means one of us was wrong. We sorted that out for the sake of knowledge, it had little to do with the whole concept of the game itself.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=Khazem] why is this even a discussion lol they're 2 different items rushed in different situations, we really don't need any math [/quote] Personally, I'm confused here, as I have never rushed Brutaliser. Are you suggesting getting Long Sword, saving up the money, and then returning to lane solely with a Brutaliser? Or are there other items one should buy? The difference in gold between a Brutaliser and a BF Sword is merely 200. If both ADCs started with Long Sword (which is oft the case now) and one rushed Brutaliser and the other rushed a BF Sword/Bloodthirster path and BOTH recalled at the same amount of gold 1000g): ADC1: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=the brutalizer] + 63g ADC2: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=vampiric scepter] + 600g to spend on whatever they like, [icon=boots of speed] + [icon=crystalline flask] In this situation, who has the upper hand? The reason I ask is, now that we know that math favours an early BF Sword over Brutalizer, even on an ADC like Draven who can benefit from the CDR. Also Nick, lol, why say, "resulted in different answers, where one of us was wrong" and not "where I was wrong"?[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=jhoijhoi] [quote=Khazem] why is this even a discussion lol they're 2 different items rushed in different situations, we really don't need any math [/quote] Personally, I'm confused here, as I have never rushed Brutaliser. Are you suggestion getting Long Sword, saving up the money, and then returning to lane solely with a Brutaliser? Or are there other items one should buy? The difference in gold between a Brutaliser and a BF Sword is merely 200. If both ADCs started with Long Sword (which is oft the case now) and one rushed Brutaliser and the other rushed a BF Sword path and BOTH recalled at the same amount of gold 1000g): ADC1: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=brutaliser] + 63g ADC2: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=vampiric scepter] + 600g to spend on whatever they like, [icon=boots of speed] + [icon=crystalline flask]] In this situation, who has the upper hand? [/quote] Well this is a situation in which brutalizer definitely has the upper hand and it could be used to pressure further. There's also the situation in which one buys BF and the other buys Brutalizer + Vamp - also resulting in an advantage for brutalizer. This item path simply grants you an advantage during a certain time which could easily be exploited. Be aware that your carry should be able to put the brutalizer to use ([[Draven]] can do it, [[Ashe]] probably can't). Another very nice side-effect is that upgrading it for 1663 (unsure on the exact price) causes you to instantly counter high-armour targets as opposed to the much more expensive [[last whisper]] which grants lower AD and no health but a slightly higher percentage.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]Doesn't the added mobility, life steal and healing/mana regen do well enough to counter/balance the extra damage and armour pen? Also: ADC1: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=the brutalizer] 937g has to be saved up ADC2: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=b. f. sword] [s]1150g[/s] 1550g has to be saved up 213g difference = 8 creeps (10 tops). You can assume the first ADC recalled earlier to rush his Brutalizer, and the second ADC stayed behind and safely farmed maybe at most two waves/grabbed Wolves. What now? They both return to lane with their rushed items, who wins?[/quote]

[quote=astrolia][quote=jhoijhoi]ADC1: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=the brutalizer] 937g has to be saved up ADC2: [icon=long sword] + [icon=health potion][icon=health potion] > [icon=b. f. sword] 1150g has to be saved up[/quote] ...since when does [[Long Sword]] build into [[BF Sword]]?[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=GrandmasterD] There's also the situation in which one buys BF and the other buys Brutalizer + Vamp - also resulting in an advantage for brutalizer. [/quote] Aren't we assuming same gold on each ADC?[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi]Astrolia: Whoooooops. You can see why I don't do the maths. That clearly should just be 1550 gold. So with the proper count in =.= 1550 gold saved up = Long Sword + BF Sword 1550 gold saved up (or they return directly to buy Brutalizer early and don't buy anything with it) = Brutalizer + 623g My bad.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=jhoijhoi] Astrolia: Whoooooops. You can see why I don't do the maths. That clearly should just be 1550 gold. Which throws out all the other calculations, to be sure. So with the proper count in =.= 1550 gold = Long Sword + BF Sword 1550 gold = Brutaliser + 213g My bad. [/quote] ehm how is long sword + BF 1550 gold?[/quote]