Doran's Ring start on ADC Tristana

[quote=sirell]I no longer see merit in the idea.[/quote]

[quote=Youngs]@Luther3000 Yes, you won't be at full health for most of laning phase, but at the start of the game and after every recall you will have full health. If you run lifesteal quints or have a sustain support a few autoattacks won't count for any of the 60. [[TRISTANA]]'s AoE is passive, which means that everytime you kill a minion the minions around it will take one less autoattack to kill. I'm not going to deny that you're going to get more than 60 autoattacks during laning phase. But each time you recall the sustain from [[DORAN'S BLADE]] becomes more irrelevant. This is because [[TRISTANA]] gains 82 health per level. It makes sense to get the 300 health right away from [[HEALTH POTION]]s before your first recall, because at this point in the game 300 health is ~2/3rds of your life bar. Also the mana you get from [[DORAN'S RING]] doesn't diminish nearly as much because when compared to other champions [url=http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_champions%27_mana][[TRISTANA]] has very low base mana and mana per level.[/url] [u]Edit:[/u] I think a good analogy for this would be inflation. I see the [[DORAN'S BLADE]] passive as depositing your money (or sustain) in the bank for 10 years. After the 10 years, you'll get more money in total from interest, but the money won't be able to buy as much due to inflation. When you compare this to not depositing your money and getting it upfront, you can buy more. This relates to the question of which item is better for sustain because [[DORAN'S BLADE]] gets you your health over time. It gets you a bit more than 300, but it's over the course of laning phase. If you get 300 health upfront from [[HEALTH POTION]]s, this can buy you 67% of your health bar back. When you get some of your sustain after your first recall, the sustain (or money) isn't worth as much because your total health has increased, as well as the damage of other champions. You're right, good players won't let you CS freely for 16 seconds, but [[DORAN'S BLADE]] doesn't do anything to solve this weakness that [[TRISTANA]] has. If [[TRISTANA]] takes harass while getting a last-hit, even if you have a [[DORAN'S BLADE]] you're not being helped at all by autoattacking them back after taking harass. If they use their ability at the same time you autoattack a creep, hitting them back with an autoattack will result in you getting hit with an autoattack at the same time. Like I said [[TRISTANA]] doesn't have fantastic base AD or AS, and champions like [[EZREAL]] have more than one ability to harass with.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]I think the math was that it takes 38-44 auto attacks with 3 lifesteal quints and a Doran's Blade to match the sustain that two [[Health Potion]]s could provide, hence why people stopped starting [[Long Sword]]/Health Potion]]x2. 60 auto's would be on the high side even for a champion like Tristana. [[Tristana]] has one of the strongest early games of all AD champions, I don't think [[Doran's Ring]] is shoring up any weaknesses that [[Doran's Blade]] might have or that Tristana might have. In fact you're probably exposing yourself to more weaknesses than a Blade start would provide. [[Doran's Blade]] is much better for all-in than [[Doran's Ring]] and Tristana is very all-in oriented from levels 2-6[/quote]

[quote=Youngs][quote=Mooninites] I think the math was that it takes 38-44 auto attacks with 3 lifesteal quints and a Doran's Blade to match the sustain that two [[Health Potion]]s could provide, hence why people stopped starting [[Long Sword]]/Health Potion]]x2. 60 auto's would be on the high side even for a champion like Tristana. [/quote] The math is 2 health potions = 300 health 300/5 = 60. If you start [[DORAN'S RING]] that doesn't mean you're not running lifesteal quints. Edit: What this means is that you won't get 60 autoattacks on your first recall, so using two health potions will be more effective before your first recall. In my above post I explain why the [[DORAN'S BLADE]] passive loses effectiveness everytime you level up. It's better to get your sustain upfront in the first few levels. [quote=Mooninites] [[Tristana]] has one of the strongest early games of all AD champions, I don't think [[Doran's Ring]] is shoring up any weaknesses that [[Doran's Blade]] might have or that Tristana might have. In fact you're probably exposing yourself to more weaknesses than a Blade start would provide. [[Doran's Blade]] is much better for all-in than [[Doran's Ring]] and Tristana is very all-in oriented from levels 2-6 [/quote] [[TRISTANA]] has a strong early game because of her abilities, not her autoattack. What weaknesses are you talking about in particular? She's very all-in oriented because of her burst. I talk about why her level 6 all-in is better with a [[DORAN'S RING]] on the first page of this thread. [quote=Youngs] I checked your math for the engagements and you're correct, but you're not thinking about level 6. Ranged champions don't have Magic Resist per level so at level 6 MR and Armor breakeven. Here's how many autoattacks it will take to breakeven at level 6, where you use her W, E, and R. x will represent the amount of autottacks, y will represent the damage dealt. I'm not sure if makes any difference but [url=http://www.lolking.net/summoner/na/24635852#runes]I'm using my second rune page.[/url] [list] [*]With [[DORAN'S RING]]: y = 79.8x + (0.8*15) + (1.0 * 15) + (1.5*15) [*]With [[DORAN'S BLADE]]: y = 89.8x [*]With [[DORAN'S RING]](Simplified): y = 79.8x + 49.5 [/list] Put this in a calculator or do it in your head and you'll see that they breakeven at x = 5. So you'd actually have to autoattack 5 times during an engage. If the enemy support has any hard CC or disengage this probably won't happen. [/quote] Almost all supports have hard CC or a strong disengae and run [[EXHAUST]] bot lane so the chance of you autoattacking 5 times in an engagement is very low compared to mid or top. btw it seems like this discussion is getting to the point where everyone is repeating the same thing over and over again.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=Youngs] If you start [[DORAN'S RING]] that doesn't mean you're not running lifesteal quints. [ She's very all-in oriented because of her burst. I talk about why her level 6 all-in is better with a [[DORAN'S RING]] on the first page of this thread. [/quote] Why would you run lifesteal quints with no attack damage? Your lifesteal quints are very ineffective without any damage. So if you are running lifesteal quints AND [[doran's ring]] you're crippling yourself even more than you have. Aside from that your math would be off, because its 6% of your auto attack damage. If you're running Doran's Blade you have an additional 10 AD that you wouldn't have so the "math" you gave is just wrong. She has strong enough base damages that you don't need the AP. Yes she's strong because of her abilities and that's even without AP. Her ult at rank 1 is 300 base damage, her E at rank 3 is 190 damage over time, her W at rank 2 is 115 damage. So yes you can do slightly under 600 damage burst with Tristana, and thats without AP at level 6 (also assuming you have 0 points in Q, 2 in W, 3 in E). And yes, you would be strong for all of 4 seconds when you blow your burst and then proceed to be incredibly weak until your burst was back up. I also don't buy this argument that because supports have CC auto attacks are weak early game. That would also have to apply to every ADC because ADC is auto attack based, even more so than tristana. So by your logic even without AP tristana would be superior to every ADC early on because CC locking her would be less effective than CC locking any other ADC, but this isn't the case. [quote=youngs] btw it seems like this discussion is getting to the point where everyone is repeating the same thing over and over again. [/quote] probably because you come up with some ridiculous and asinine argument like "supports have CC so auto's ineffective" and then you proceed to full circle your arguments thinking your proving a point.[/quote]

[quote=Youngs][quote=Mooninites] Why would you run lifesteal quints with no attack damage? Your lifesteal quints are very ineffective without any damage. So if you are running lifesteal quints AND [[doran's ring]] you're crippling yourself even more than you have. Aside from that your math would be off, because its 6% of your auto attack damage. If you're running Doran's Blade you have an additional 10 AD that you wouldn't have so the "math" you gave is just wrong. [/quote] y represents amount of health healed. x represents amount of autoattacks in lane. Sustain for [[DORAN'S RING]] at level 3 with lifesteal quints, ad reds, and 21/9/0 masteries: y = 0.06 * (1.02 * (46.5 + (3*3) + (0.67*3) + 3 + 8.55))x + 300 Simplified: y = 4.226472x + 300 Sustain for [[DORAN'S BLADE]] at level 3 with lifesteal quints, ad reds, and 21/9/0 masteries: y = 0.06 * (1.02 * (46.5 + (3*3) + (0.67*3) + 3 + 8.55 + 10))x + 5x + 0 Simplified: y = 9.838472x It takes 54 autoattacks for them to breakeven, so the point still stands. [quote=Mooninites] She has strong enough base damages that you don't need the AP. Yes she's strong because of her abilities and that's even without AP. Her ult at rank 1 is 300 base damage, her E at rank 3 is 190 damage over time, her W at rank 2 is 115 damage. So yes you can do slightly under 600 damage burst with Tristana, and thats without AP at level 6 (also assuming you have 0 points in Q, 2 in W, 3 in E). And yes, you would be strong for all of 4 seconds when you blow your burst and then proceed to be incredibly weak until your burst was back up. [/quote] She has high base damage but that doesn't mean you don't need the AP. Having high base damage doesn't make AP items less effective. [[LEBLANC]] has great base damage, that doesn't mean you don't build [[LEBLANC]] AP. If you do more damage with [[DORAN'S RING]], you do more damage. You're weaker than usual after using your abilities, but unless you get 5 autoattacks off [[DORAN'S RING]] has made you do more damage. If by incredibly weak you mean doing less damage in an all-in, then a [[TRISTANA]] starting [[DORAN'S BLADE]] is weaker (unless you get those 5 autoattacks which i'll talk about below). [quote=Mooninites] I also don't buy this argument that because supports have CC auto attacks are weak early game. That would also have to apply to every ADC because ADC is auto attack based, even more so than tristana. So by your logic even without AP tristana would be superior to every ADC early on because CC locking her would be less effective than CC locking any other ADC, but this isn't the case. [/quote] By this logic [[TRISTANA]] isn't superior overall, but by this logic ability based carries are superior to autoattack reliant carries early game. And this is the case. Example: [[GRAVES]] and [[MISS FORTUNE]] usually win lane vs. [[ASHE]] and [[VAYNE]]. Before the nerfs [[URGOT]] had a very strong laning phase aswell. Also, supports started taking [[EXHAUST]] instead of [[CLAIRVOYANCE]] because of how autoattack based the enemy AD Carries are. [quote=Mooninites] probably because you come up with some ridiculous and asinine argument like "supports have CC so auto's ineffective" and then you proceed to full circle your arguments thinking your proving a point. [/quote] No, I don't think that's it. If I come up with something new then I'm not repeating the same thing over and over again.[/quote]

[quote=Thalia Kael]You're still ignoring that if you only trade/harass with your E, a support with a shield or Urgot can completely shut down all of your trading/harass potential... you need to take into account the supports. Also, if you rely on your E for damage, a champion like Caitlyn or Draven can throw his Q at you at the same time dealing roughly the same amount of damage and then can just zone you for the next 16 seconds because your autos will not do as much and trading autos with him will result in your loss And in all-ins unless you are way ahead in health than the enemies I don't see the trouble with getting in at least 5 autoattacks because the enemies will fight you unless they know they are going to die and if your initial burst doesn't kill them all you will be doing for the next 16 seconds to damage them[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=Youngs] She has high base damage but that doesn't mean you don't need the AP. Having high base damage doesn't make AP items less effective. [[LEBLANC]] has great base damage, that doesn't mean you don't build [[LEBLANC]] AP. If you do more damage with [[DORAN'S RING]], you do more damage. You're weaker than usual after using your abilities, but unless you get 5 autoattacks off [[DORAN'S RING]] has made you do more damage. If by incredibly weak you mean doing less damage in an all-in, then a [[TRISTANA]] starting [[DORAN'S BLADE]] is weaker (unless you get those 5 autoattacks which i'll talk about below). By this logic [[TRISTANA]] isn't superior overall, but by this logic ability based carries are superior to autoattack reliant carries early game. And this is the case. Example: [[GRAVES]] and [[MISS FORTUNE]] usually win lane vs. [[ASHE]] and [[VAYNE]]. Before the nerfs [[URGOT]] had a very strong laning phase aswell. Also, supports started taking [[EXHAUST]] instead of [[CLAIRVOYANCE]] because of how autoattack based the enemy AD Carries are. No, I don't think that's it. If I come up with something new then I'm not repeating the same thing over and over again. [/quote] First things first, you are not coming up with something new. You're not some great innovator, people have tried running AP on tristana before to aid her bot lane (I'm one of them), but it's never stuck, and for good reason. And I was commenting on how you were just repeating the same arguments over and over in cyclical fashion. Now in regards to [[Leblanc]], Leblanc is an AP champion. She's an AP burst mage. That is why you are building AP on her. [[Tristana]] can be played as an AP burst mage or she can be played as an ADC. You are choosing to play her as an ADC and you are building AP. you choose to play Leblanc as an AP burst mage and you build AP. Do you not see the difference? There is a major difference because of the way you are choosing to play them. This is what I'm talking about when I say "you create asinine arguments". This so irrelevant and incorrect that its pretty laughable. In regards to auto-attacking champions. [[Draven]] is an auto attacking champion who has the strongest early, a lot MF's damage early game comes from her high mobility and [[Impure Shots]] not her [[Double-up]] as some might believe. [[Graves]] has strong laning for a number of reasons, not just [[buckshot]]. If anything [[Ashe]] isn't strictly an auto attack champion, because so much of her early harass comes from [[Volley]]. Additionally, [[Vayne]]s weak early game is not because she is mostly auto attack based. [[urgot]] still has a strong laning phase, don't know what you're talking about. Supports took [[Exhaust]] because CV got nerfed and they still take now because of how cheap and how much access supports have to vision with [[Sightstone]] and [[Ruby Sightstone]]. If CV was still on a 30 second cooldown and there wasn't access to the sightstones, I bet supports would still take CV. The reason supports started taking Exhaust is because of the CV nerf and the way the game has changed, not because suddenly ADC's became auto-attack based. Even then, Exhaust really isn't that effective early, it becomes more effective the more items the target gets. It's also worth mentioning that [[ignite]] and [[heal]] are not uncommon summoners on supports.[/quote]

[quote=Youngs][quote=Mooninites] Now in regards to [[Leblanc]], Leblanc is an AP champion. She's an AP burst mage. That is why you are building AP on her. [[Tristana]] can be played as an AP burst mage or she can be played as an ADC. You are choosing to play her as an ADC and you are building AP. you choose to play Leblanc as an AP burst mage and you build AP. Do you not see the difference? There is a major difference because of the way you are choosing to play them. This is what I'm talking about when I say "you create asinine arguments". This so irrelevant and incorrect that its pretty laughable. [/quote] I'm not building [[TRISTANA]] AP. If you're selling your Doran's item, it makes no difference on your lategame. [[DORAN'S RING]] is the item that gives me an advantage in laning phase. In laning phase you play [[TRISTANA]] like [[LEBLANC]] because of her high base damage, and therefore [[DORAN'S RING]] does not interfere with your playstyle, instead it synergizes with it. This isn't an asinine argument. What would be asinine is saying that [[DORAN'S RING]] isn't worth buying just because you have high base damage. The fact that they are different types of champions lategame makes no difference. An analogy for this would be Jon Bon Jovi. If you give 2 tablets of aspirin each to 100 adult males and it turns out they're completely safe, then they should be fine for someone like Bon Jovi. Just because he's allergic to pollen, doesn't mean aspirin is dangerous for him. What I mean by this is when you are comparing things to prove a point, some differences between them are relevant and some are irrelevant. When you compare Bon Jovi to 100 adult males when you're questioning if aspirin is safe for Bon Jovi, his allergies to pollen are irrelevant. When you compare [[TRISTANA]] to [[LEBLANC]] when you're questioning if [[DORAN'S RING]] is viable on [[TRISTANA]], the differences in their role lategame are irrelevant because by that time [[DORAN'S RING]] is sold. [quote=Mooninites] In regards to auto-attacking champions. [[Draven]] is an auto attacking champion who has the strongest early, a lot MF's damage early game comes from her high mobility and [[Impure Shots]] not her [[Double-up]] as some might believe. [[Graves]] has strong laning for a number of reasons, not just [[buckshot]]. If anything [[Ashe]] isn't strictly an auto attack champion, because so much of her early harass comes from [[Volley]]. Additionally, [[Vayne]]s weak early game is not because she is mostly auto attack based. [[urgot]] still has a strong laning phase, don't know what you're talking about. [/quote] [[DRAVEN]] relies on his abilities early game. The reason he can harass well and have an amazing laning phase is because of [[SPINNING AXE]]. [[SPINNING AXE]] does so much damage that it's pretty much an ability and not a steroid. This is why [[DRAVEN]] rushes [[BLOODTHIRSTER]] just like an AD Caster. [[ASHE]] actually does rely on autoattacks, this is a reason why [[INFINITY EDGE]] is rushed on her, not just her passive. If [[VOLLEY]] was a powerful ability that [[ASHE]] could rely on for early game presence, [url=http://www.lolking.net/champions/ashe]then we wouldn't see more Ashes buying Infinity Edge than Bloodthirster.[/url] (Keep in mind that [[BLOODTHIRSTER]] is the #1 Item for buffing your AD Carries that want their abilities to do tons of damage.) The main use of [[VOLLEY]] is to apply [[FROST SHOT]]. [[MISS FORTUNE]] has a strong laning phase because of the strong harass [[DOUBLE UP]] gives. You can argue that [[IMPURE SHOTS]] are more useful in engages but what makes her particularly strong in engagements is [[BULLET TIME]]. And yes, [[URGOT]] still has a strong laning phase. He's also completely ability based- [url=http://www.lolking.net/champions/urgot]people build him as an AD caster.[/url] Do you see the correlation here? [quote=Mooninites] Supports took [[Exhaust]] because CV got nerfed and they still take now because of how cheap and how much access supports have to vision with [[Sightstone]] and [[Ruby Sightstone]]. If CV was still on a 30 second cooldown and there wasn't access to the sightstones, I bet supports would still take CV. The reason supports started taking Exhaust is because of the CV nerf and the way the game has changed, not because suddenly ADC's became auto-attack based. Even then, Exhaust really isn't that effective early, it becomes more effective the more items the target gets. It's also worth mentioning that [[ignite]] and [[heal]] are not uncommon summoners on supports. [/quote] I'd love to have a conversation with you about the history of the support meta but right now this is about how [[DORAN'S RING]] fits with the current meta, not an alternate timeline where CV wasn't nerfed. And right now, [[EXHAUST]] is taken on supports about 90% of the time, and it impacts autoattacks more than abilities. This is exactly why it's more effective lategame, because it's effectiveness scales with along with autoattacks.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]Exhaust actually impacts burst far more than it does autoattacks. If you're autoattacking a guy with good positioning and you get exhausted, you can just back out, forget the whole thing and their exhaust is on cooldown for 200 seconds. If you've used your gapcloser and you're going all-in your burst all gets reduced and you're shit out of luck because you used your escape to go in. but whatever this thread is getting kinda silly[/quote]