Xerath and Skarner Reworks: Better or worse?

[quote=Mooninites][quote=Luther3000] [quote=Toshabi] I think you need to learn positioning according to twitch. [/quote] And I think you need to learn how the game works. c: You're right, positioning would solve absolutely everything - that's why Twitch today is a highly contested pick in every major tournament setting. Oh, wait... Twitch took a really big hit to his early game with the Expunge nerf, which removed much of the reason he was being picked: that being the fact that he was the only high DPS hyper-carry to have a strong, dominant laning phase. In addition, with the release of new champions and the changes to the support metagame, current popular laners like [[jinx]], [[lucian]], [[draven]], [[leona]], [[Thresh]] and [[annie]] absolutely dump on Twitch if played properly. Leona in particular is just borderline impossible to lane against. Lastly, you can't expect much peel these days as ADC protection is at an all-time low - champions without some kind of escape are almost worthless by default right now (the exception being [[jinx]] because everything else about her kit is broken). Even if you don't want to blindy play meta picks, you need to understand how the metagame, new champions and buffs/nerfs affect a champion's strength. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to derail this any further. [/quote] The LCS shouldn't always be an indication of how viable a champion is. [[Tristana]], [[Ezreal]], [[Vayne]] aren't picked that often in LCS despite probably being in a pretty good spot. Not entirely sure but I think [[Urgot]] has been picked more than any of them (Urgot picked 3 times in NA LCS?). That doesn't mean [[Urgot]] is a good ADC just because he's picked in the LCS, it just means he fits the niche role they're trying to fill with their ADC. I think the main reason [[Twitch]] isn't played in LCS is because [[Jinx]] does everything he does but better. Also, [[Tristana]] is a very lane dominant, late-game hypercarry. She's extremely strong at levels 2-6. Anwyay; on to [[Xerath]] and [[Skarner]]. [[Xerath]] was a massive buff regardless of the numbers; looking from a kit aspect he is much better. I wouldn't say he was clunky before, but overall he's a lot smoother and his individual skills are a lot stronger than before. Before you had to activate your W to go into siege mode, and while W gave a huge amount of Spell Pen, it took up a spell slot. Allowing him to siege by charging his Q longer instead of rooting in place is a pretty good change. He also doesn't have to rely on his W being off cooldown to siege, so a good change. I really like his W, good damage and strong slow. His E is pretty derpy, it's lower range than his other abilities kind of slow and doesn't really deal good damage. There was a reddit post about it today, was the first thing I noticed. Just kind of shitty but whatever. I like his ult even if it might be slightly worse. It's pretty hard to land on competent enemies, but it's global and does good damage so it's definitely good. A couple of people have pointed out that he has mana issues, and I would agree his passive is kind of bad, but the numbers can be tweaked. I know nothing about [[Skarner]] so I really can't say much, his ult was a really good change for all parties involved. Rooting them during the cast time ensures they won't waste a flash or escape only to be dragged back, and it allows skarner to use ult without having to have it broken by a dash. No more perma-slow though[/quote]

[quote=MyRepublic]Why are people talking about [[twitch]] in a post about [[xerath]] and [[skarner]] .-. I mean I am all for a [[twitch]] thread since he's been my favorite adc for a long time (although I side with luther), but this isn't the place to talk about that really.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=MyRepublic] Why are people talking about [[twitch]] in a post about [[xerath]] and [[skarner]] .-. I mean I am all for a [[twitch]] thread since he's been my favorite adc for a long time (although I side with luther), but this isn't the place to talk about that really. [/quote] [[Twitch]] was brought up in regards to his rework, whether it was positive or not. I think it's fine to compare reworks of [[Skarner]] and [[Xerath]] to other previous reworks. It's a pretty good way to see what works and what doesn't.[/quote]

[quote=sayhisam1]I like Twitch, as I have mained him for several hundred games now, and he is really strong. Only thing is that you really need peel with him, otherwise you will die really fast and be absolutely useless. His ult is a devastating burst that damages the whole enemy team, and that is what most of his damage relies on, so you really gotta position correctly. As for Xerath, I am kinda mixed on this. I like how they changed the W to a damage dealing slow, and I like the changes to his Q(makes him a real lane bully with his passive) but I dislike his ult and his E. His ult, for starters, hardly does more damage than his Q per a shot. It just doesn't really strike me as a useful spell, since you have to sacrifice all mobility in order to nuke someone really far away. If you use it in teamfights, you either have to be really far behind your team, or just save it as a cleanup. His E seems to be the biggest problem with his kit, though. It is short ranged, slow, and gets blocked by creeps. On top of that, it doesn't even stun for long enough for you to unload your whole burst. It seems to be really only useful for kiting, and your W is more than enough to kite well. His passive seems good. His Q, however, does have a rather slow chargeup, but I am not complaining, as it is such a long ranged quick to fire poke, and can zone really hard.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Mooninites] [quote=Luther3000] [quote=Toshabi] I think you need to learn positioning according to twitch. [/quote] And I think you need to learn how the game works. c: You're right, positioning would solve absolutely everything - that's why Twitch today is a highly contested pick in every major tournament setting. Oh, wait... Twitch took a really big hit to his early game with the Expunge nerf, which removed much of the reason he was being picked: that being the fact that he was the only high DPS hyper-carry to have a strong, dominant laning phase. In addition, with the release of new champions and the changes to the support metagame, current popular laners like [[jinx]], [[lucian]], [[draven]], [[leona]], [[Thresh]] and [[annie]] absolutely dump on Twitch if played properly. Leona in particular is just borderline impossible to lane against. Lastly, you can't expect much peel these days as ADC protection is at an all-time low - champions without some kind of escape are almost worthless by default right now (the exception being [[jinx]] because everything else about her kit is broken). Even if you don't want to blindy play meta picks, you need to understand how the metagame, new champions and buffs/nerfs affect a champion's strength. I'll leave it at that because I don't want to derail this any further. [/quote] [[Xerath]] was a massive buff regardless of the numbers; looking from a kit aspect he is much better. I wouldn't say he was clunky before, but overall he's a lot smoother and his individual skills are a lot stronger than before. Before you had to activate your W to go into siege mode, and while W gave a huge amount of Spell Pen, it took up a spell slot. Allowing him to siege by charging his Q longer instead of rooting in place is a pretty good change. He also doesn't have to rely on his W being off cooldown to siege, so a good change. I really like his W, good damage and strong slow. His E is pretty derpy, it's lower range than his other abilities kind of slow and doesn't really deal good damage. There was a reddit post about it today, was the first thing I noticed. Just kind of shitty but whatever. I like his ult even if it might be slightly worse. It's pretty hard to land on competent enemies, but it's global and does good damage so it's definitely good. A couple of people have pointed out that he has mana issues, and I would agree his passive is kind of bad, but the numbers can be tweaked. [/quote] Regarding numbers he didn't get a massive buff, that's bs. His ult got a minor buff on base damage but a good nerf on scaling (from 0.6 per blast to 0.43) so that's definitely a late-game nerf. Additionally the AoE got smaller and the delay higher. For compensation it got great range so his new ult definitely isn't the issue. The new W is solid. The damage is okay, I mean you gotta hit the center but then it's good damage with a great scaling. The slow is also nice. I don't like the mana cost, trading a no-cost ability for an 80-120 mana cost ability definitely hits hard in the mana department. The new E is a really big issue. The fact that it's blocked by minions and can be dodged easily makes xerath very susceptible to high mobility champions. Additionally the damage got gutted and the cool down is high now. The passive overall buffs his laning but wrecks him late where he cannot utilise it and gets into mana problems because of it (even with Athene's). You can't build Tear because it'll absolutely destroy your laning phase. Generally I'm pretty sure the rework didn't make him stronger, it definitely didn't make him more viable as a champion. Champions like [[LeBlanc]] and [[Fizz]] will be really tough to deal with due to his E no longer being targeted. He's flashier but needs more tweaks to become viable but I still enjoy playing him.[/quote]

[quote=utopus]I think they could change his passive around to actually make it relevant to the game outside of the laning phase. Perhaps make it like some hybrid of mana return & [[short fuse]], where his autos do damage based off some (.2->.33 AP) AP ratio + base damage, [b]and also[/b] return mana. Doing this would also make it easier for xeraths to do damage against assassins that just surprise buttsecks him in team fights.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]Pre-work, Xerath would have been one of my favourite champions if I'd played him more, I loved his W Q and R spells. Now I hate his W, I hate his E, I hate his R, and I hate his Q. It feels so much more clunky, e.g., you're running from someone, try to cast Q backwards then keep on running, and you end up casting Q ahead of you because of the whole charging thing. It takes like 2 seconds to get to his max range Q now, it does less damage because no free magic pen, it feels like it has less range because you're forced to cast it within 1.5 seconds of reaching max charge rather than waiting for the opportune moment, urgh... I hate using it now. It was incredibly fun to poke enemies from afar as Xerath with W Q, now it just feels horrible because you're giving them so much warning time. If it didn't slow your movement speed down maybe I wouldn't hate it so much, but it does. W is nice for wave-clearing, but I hate it otherwise. Its range isn't good for poking, if you're going to poke with it, there's absolutely no point in having so much range on your Q if you're going to be getting that close anyway. His ult fucking SUCKS. It's gained more range, awesome, but it's also IMPOSSIBLE to hit on anyone trying to dodge it. You're FORCED to be locked down while casting it too, rather than being able to choose between range and damage or mobility. And its damage isn't impressing me either; the only indication I've had in my previous 2 games that I actually landed one of the ball things, was that I got an assist on someone from across the map. If I'd had to guess if I'd hit it by seeing how much damage it did, I'd have thought it hadn't hit anyone. I mean okay, I've probably landed the first one a few times, when they weren't expecting it. But the other 2 balls? No way. Q nerfed, W useless aside from using the slow to peel enemies off you, R nerfed. The ONLY change I like is his E. And his E was not an issue before. Not touching this champion again until they give him another rework, or just revert it. I hate the new Xerath.[/quote]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]I haven't tried the new Xerath, but the biggest thing I liked about the old one is how he absolutely dsstroys melee champions early to mid game. So thats probably not going to happen any more. And the one thing I didnt like about old Xerath is about how his late game was pretty poor unless the enemies completely retarded, which hasn't changed. So I'll say it was probably a bad rework.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote=GrandmasterD] Regarding numbers he didn't get a massive buff, that's bs. His ult got a minor buff on base damage but a good nerf on scaling (from 0.6 per blast to 0.43) so that's definitely a late-game nerf. Additionally the AoE got smaller and the delay higher. For compensation it got great range so his new ult definitely isn't the issue. [/quote] [quote=Mooninites] [[Xerath]] was a massive buff regardless of the numbers; looking from a kit aspect he is much better [/quote] I said it was a massive buff if you disregard the numbers. Numbers can and likely will be tweaked after a rework so I don't really think there's a point to hawk over ratios or base damage this early on. It's a buff in that his kit is in a better spot than it was previously.[/quote]

[quote=OTGBionicArm]Wasn't the issue with [[Xerath]] previously that he felt really... really... really underwhelming without his ult up?[/quote]