Thanks for your reply!

I will try and address the boots issue and sheen build situational rather than core. I was wondering however, what made you disagree with Liandry's being a survival item?


I put Awareness because it helps with her EXP a lot. Having higher levels means that you have better base stats, something that helps Soraka jungle immensely. I also chose Expanded Mind because I felt the extra mana was more useful than ~6-8 MS when out of combat. My decision on Tough Skin was probably just bad judgement on my part, and I'll see if I can address that. However, why do you disagree with Awareness and Expanded Mind on soraka?

The high sustain is a point in her early game. Blue helps keep your mana high, and the base cost is only 80mana. Chalice is extremely helpful as well for her mana, and that is why it is one of the suggested items.

The magic penetration marks were a bit of a misswording. It gives her higher damage overall and makes her scale better.

-1 because

Sheen is in Core section
CD Boots are core but you have Sorcs in the example build
Liandrys is a 'survival' item
Lich Bane is an option

HP Quints

No Tough Skin
Awareness
Expanded Mind

"Extremely high sustain" - Good luck with a heal that costs 200 mana and Starcalls that cost 80 mana every ~2s

"Doesn't duel very well vs current meta like lee sin and udyr" - Yeah, because it's a ****ing Lee Sin or Udyr. Soraka is stupid strong in duels especially levels 1-3, anyone who says otherwise hasn't played vs a good Soraka.

"Magic penetration marks helps with overall damage on lanes, as well as clearing your own jungle." - Explain how you can penetrate MR to below zero. You can't.

Unconventional guides are good.

Bad unconventional guides are bad.

Actually, no. I'm going around downvoting because I see something wrong. Nothing is assumed. Your cheatsheet was wrong, therefore I downvoted. You even admit to this discrepancy.



Actually, you may. That is your prerogative. And before you ask, yes, I have downvoted Korean guides before.






*sigh* You missed the point yet again. To answer your question, no. But then that is not what I said, nor was that what you said. You said the component parts were stronger than the completed item. While I understand that is not what you meant, you then missed what I said thereafter and so I have to say it again for the 3rd time. You get limited gold as a jungler. So with limited gold, you aim to build the more expensive items in the game which also has relatively expensive component parts? I ask again, how long do you think it takes to farm up the 1000 gold for Giant's Belt in the jungle camps?



Wrong again. That is not what I said and that is not the point I made, either. My point was that it was well within your abilities to make a cheatsheet that was aligned with what you wrote in the guide, but you failed.

And no, your analogy does not work. Because you were comparing different genres of games, whereas this is a case of comparing ability to write a guide. In addition, it has no relevance to whether a single developer can actually make Crysis 3.

And yes, a developer can make Crysis 3 because the word 'developer' can refer to more than one person i.e a company, which is what I thought you meant, but since you are vague as ****, I was mistaken in your meaning.



As I said, don't even begin to lecture me on what I can and cannot downvote. I can downvote a cheatsheet which is wrong and I did. It doesn't matter who wrote the guide and/or what rating he already has. There are some top guides which I have downvoted solely based on the cheatsheet.

You don't get it. If the cheatsheet is wrong, then that is already reason to downvote.

And in case you haven't noticed, I've actually been talking about jungle Soraka, not saying 'ehrmahgahd, Soraka iz ah suppert, wtf yu doin brah', so your talk about me burying a guide that doesn't confirm to meta is complete ******** and irrelevant.

The example guide writers I also listed earlier, not all of them were established members before they wrote a guide either. It's not about being an established member, so stop ranting about it.



Ah, there is that 'it's playstyle' argument coming out. And actually, I can judge based on the cheatsheet. If the cheatsheet shows me that I should build 5 Phantom Dancers on Lulu, according to you, I should read through the guide before deciding to downvote, which is utter ********.

As you said, if I want to downvote the guides then I will and there isn't anyone stopping me. Since I saw the revisions, I was considering changing to an upvote. But what you have said now has convinced me otherwise.

So basically, you're going to go around, look at the quick build, and downvote a guide in which someone has spent a lot of effort because you feel it was a "trash guide" even without looking at the explanations of anything? You assume instantly that my guide is a "trash" guide. Is that because I haven't verified my account to be in G3? Is it because I'm not one of the popular members who has 500+rep and probably a few thousand votes on their guides? No, you said it was because I didn't add a spectral wraiths to the example build, and that the items I list are too luxurious. Except that in the guide, I already mention that spirit stone turns into a spectral wraiths, and that the items are built from your cores.

And since anything wrong can be worth a downvote, should I just go around downvoting every guide? You can't tell me a guide is 100% corret. Even if the most professional players in the KR scene wrote guides, there are sure to be things wrong. That's called human.




So you're telling me, it's better to rush to a full completed item? That means I should always rush botrk, without getting tier 2 boots, without getting dorans blades or potions, on vayne?...

I've said this before, and i'll say it again. As jungle Soraka you get your cores first and then work to the more complete item. The base items give you good stats, and you are able to work to the completed items through the game.





So you think a single developer with limited resource and time, could develop one of the most detailed games ever? ......

And then you say "it compares the difference in genre" and not the "difference in ability", even though you just said that a single developer can make crysis 3 (AKA they can make a game of that genre).

My analogy may not be the best, but it works in this situation. You are probably viewing it in the wrong way, considering you seem to have counteracted yourself in your own statement...


I suppose I have to thank you, since you have taught me to just quickly glance at a guide and downvote it if there's a single thing I don't agree on.

If you don't want to take the time to look fully at a guide, then don't bother voting on it. You can't assume a guide is trash just because it has a cheatsheet you don't normally see and it has no votes. If you were voting on a guide with 500+ votes and a 90% rating, or if it was made by a famous poster, then of course you would read thoroughly through it before rating. I guess I have none of those, I don't have any rep, I don't have a single famous guide, and I only wrote this guide so that people can appreciate a different way to play Soraka, and stop making the game a boring meta-pick game. Question is, if you go on and just simply bury any guide that isn't "standard", then are you content with having a million "Vayne ADC" guides that all conform to the meta and generally have the exact same content?



Ultimately, i'm not trying to start a flame war. If you want to downvote guides, then go ahead, there's no one stopping you. A guide is more than just a quick look over the build, it's about a playstyle and how the playstyle has worked for someone, and how it can work for others. That is impossible to show in the "cheatsheets" that you use to give a quick judge on a guide.

And why should I do that? If you can't convince me that it's worth reading using the cheatsheet, why should I continue reading? Do you know how many guides are released every day? I'm not going to waste my time reading trash guides. Besides, if anything is wrong at all, it can be worth a downvote.




The base items are never better than completed items. Are you trying to tell me a Giant's Belt is better than a completed Rylai's Crystal Scepter? What you are trying to say is vague and obscure, which ultimately suggests you are wrong, even if what you meant to say isn't.

I never said Rylai's Crystal Scepter isn't a good item, I said it was a LUXURY. As I said before and I'll say again now: junglers do not have the luxury that is called 'gold'. Tell me exactly how many camps you have to clear before you get the gold to buy a Giant's Belt? How long does that take?

Henceforth, your items should be more oriented towards being gold-efficient, which you have (for the most part), failed to do.



Then it should not be a problem. I never complained about your coding nor your structuring. Incidentally, 5 hours is not actually a very long time. My point is that we judge on what we see. We don't care how much effort has gone into it. We just care enough to vote based on the actual result.



Whyever not? Why can we not expect that from you? Is it beyond your capability? No? Then what the **** are you complaining about?

Yes, errors can happen. Incidentally, so can downvotes. There's a user called DKitten on MOBAFire. She is not Challenger 2K+ post member. When she posted her first guide, she had 0 comments/posts on MOBAFire. However, her structuring was immaculate. Everything was exactly where it should be and it was easy to navigate everything, and everything you could ever need for the champion was done on the cheatsheet. I can point out multiple users who are like this: FalseoGod, GrandmistressD and so on. None of them made these errors, even on their first try.

You are not an indie developer and even if you were, you are fully capable of delivering Crysis 3. However, your analogy is actually wrong since it compares the differences in genre and not the differences in ability, which should be the case here.

No excuses.

Look, though we prefer to have a perfectly structured and written guide, often is the case that we don't get one. However, it is easy to amend any errors and, if the errors are amended, voters can change their vote.

I didn't tell you what you can and can't downvote, i'm just saying if you're going to one of the first people to vote on a guide and you know your vote will have a major impact on the overall rating, then you should at least consider giving a quick glance at the entire guide rather than just look at the quick build and decide if it's good or not based on that.

Rylai's is a very good item on Soraka. As i've said before, the base items are much better on soraka than full completed items, and rather than rushing full items (So that you have a tier 2 boots and a Lich bane only), you should try and build the core items based on how it's going in game. Get a giant's belt if you feel you are too squishy, get a blasting wand if you need more damage, etc... those are all mentioned in the guide...




I never used it as an excuse to make a bad guide. I also didn't slack off. In fact, I spent over 5 hours just researching for different fonts, different styles, tricks, etc... so that I could make this guide really well done.

My point however, was that you can't expect my guide to be Challenger 1 2k+ post member quality. Yes, there are points that I should have brought up in the cheatsheet rather than in the detailed guide, and yes I probably missed a few key points that I know but forgot to write in the guide. However, things like that happen. That's like looking at an indie developer for a game, and expecting them to deliver Crysis 3.

Isn't Rylais like really really good on Soraka? Cuz 24/7 slowing a whole team :O

Point being that you should not be aiming to build a Rabadon's Deathcap at all or items like it. Spirit of the Spectral Wraith is also core, which is concerning when we don't see it in your end build. Items like Rylai's Crystal Scepter are luxuries and are by no means options unless you are roflstomping, which if you are Soraka, usually is not the case.

Also, if your cheatsheet does not match what is said in the written part of the guide, that's not my fault, that's yours. I give downvotes for mismatching information too. Do not presume to be able to tell me what I can and cannot downvote.

And the fact that it's your first guide is not an excuse. We do not slack off on voting just because you do not research how these things are to be done.

I do mention turning it into a spectral wraiths in the "Items" chapter. It's one of the first items that I recommended she buys. I'll add it to the build, but it was there in the items chapter, as well as the example build

I also mention that Deathcap should be near-last/last item that she build if she is incredibly fed. I give suggestion to other damage items that she is able to build, and I only have deathcaps in the guide since it is a really good item if you're on a roll.

It may have been my bad for not mentioning it higher up. I am not too good at making guides yet since this is my first one. However, I would appreciate it if you read the full guide before voting :/

EDIT:
Also to elaborate, jungle soraka is built on more her inexpensive cores than the actual finished items. Having a chalice, sheen, spirit stone, etc... would be more recommended than finishing an Athene's Unholy Grail for instance. Her base recipe items aren't too expensive and you are able to sustain in the jungle long enough to get the gold for her items like blasting wand.

Simple. Two major things wrong.

1) You don't upgrade your Spirit Stone. The spell vamp from Spirit of the Spectral Wraith increase your sustain and damage output in one go. It's actually a core item on AP Soraka, regardless of whether you are jungling or not.

2) The rest of your suggested items are hella expensive. Junglers earn the least gold after supports do (sometimes they even earn less). Good luck getting a Rabadon's Deathcap with jungle camps.