7.4 Tier List + AMA

[quote=Lasoor][quote] Warwick is a terrible champion. He gets by at lower mmr because people don't punish the fact that hes barely a champion until level 6. if he wasn't so terrible he wouldn't be getting reworked.[/quote] He's getting a rework to make him more interesting. He's far more viable than [[Master Yi]] or [[Aatrox]] in higher elos and as a jungler excels at every thing a jungler should be doing. Objective control, jungle clearing, and team fighting. If you build him correctly he can do great in higher elos, but not many people build him right which would explain why people would say he's weak. A simple fact is he actually feels strong unlike most jungle champions. Most other jungle champions require a lot of personal skill just to pull things off and even then can lose to a [[Warwick]] player who is kind of new to [[Warwick]]. A skilled [[Warwick]] player like me just dominates even against high elo players, which I personally have experience doing. [quote] Nocturne is tier 3 because he is just not reliable enough. Ever since the removal of sota, his devourer bruiser build just isnt very effective anymore, and that relegates him to building full damage with warrior to try to one shot people. The problem with this is that a single armor item or peel champion essentially makes him useless and relegates him to splitpushing, and if he falls behind, he cant kill anyone and just becomes completely useless. There are plenty of other junglers that can explode squishies, and they have much stronger earlygames than nocturne.[/quote] Nocturne is completely viable as both full damage and on-hit. You can build him either way and if you want him to be more of a team fighter you go on-hit. Early game [[Nocturne]] is very strong in comparison to most other junglers, he scales faster with kills than most other junglers, he gets kills easier than many junglers, and he is a strong team fighter. It's just about knowing how to play him which even many people in higher elos don't know how to do properly. [quote] Yorick is a strong laner and decent splitpusher... but thats it. He is weak in teamfights and his splitpush is a slow one that isnt even comparable to stronger splitpushers like fiora and jax. No real reason to pick him in most cases. His wall is interesting and can be useful in some cases, but is really easy to counterplay. Once again, in lower MMR, people are much more clueless. I'd wager that most of them don't even realize the wall is destructible.[/quote] I don't see how you can call his split pushing slow when he is one of the fastest lane pushers currently. He is a strong split pusher, simple as that. Many other split pushers rely on items for their push speed such as [[Tryndamere]] and his Statik Shiv. [[Yorick]] is fast just using his ghouls, but if a player really wants to he can buy items to help him do it faster too. He can push lanes without even being there and while he is there he pushes it quickly. Even if the entire enemy team tries to stop him a skilled [[Yorick]] will normally get away because of his kit's utility and the way you build him. He is a much stronger split pusher than [[Jax]]. You can't even compare [[Jax]] to [[Yorick]], [[Yorick]] will win every time. Not only can [[Yorick]] escape and push lanes quickly, he can also 1v1 almost anyone even a [[Fiora]]. And plenty of higher elo people take full advantage of [[Yorick]]'s ability to push lanes fast and beat multiple opponents solo. [quote]Ashe is tier 1 solely off her reliability. She contributes immediately at level 6, and even if her damage falls off because she is behind the curve of the game, she can make plays for her team with her ult, whether the team is ahead or not. There aren't any ADCs that are good at killing tanks in the midgame, so the ADCs with utility are just naturally better at the moment.[/quote] [[Vayne]] is good at killing tanks and [[Twitch]] is alright at it. I'd agree [[Ashe]] is Tier 1, but to say she is a better pick than [[Twitch]] is crazy. [[Twitch]] is really good right now. [quote] Ezreal doesn't come online until 20 minutes when he finishes muramana and his sheen item. His earlygame isn't anything to write home about.[/quote] ADCs are normally late game champions anyway. Thing is, a skilled [[Ezreal]] player can easily stay relevant all game even when behind and early game it isn't difficult for an [[Ezreal]] to snowball. [quote]Vayne is laughably terrible in the earlygame. I have no idea where you get the notion that vayne is strong in the earlygame from.[/quote] [[Vayne]] does a lot of damage early game and can easily avoid ganks. Literally the only issue with [[Vayne]] right now is her range is too short so she can easily be countered by longer range adcs. However, a skilled [[Vayne]] player will win most match ups and carry games. Just look at the high elo [[Vayne]] mains. Knowing the champ allows you to utilize its strengths and [[Vayne]] has many strengths. I have no idea where you get the notion that [[Vayne]] has a weak early game. [quote]Twitch has a slightly above average earlygame at best. He's extremely fragile and has to be super careful vs most meta supports, and he also has no instant repositioning ability. His main problem is how long it takes for him to scale up to kill tanks.[/quote] [[Twitch]]'s strength is his damage output. You should be skilled if you're playing adc role anyway and skill is all [[Twitch]] needs to make him being fragile not so important. He also has the capability of turning enemy ganks in his favor because he can hurt multiple people at once with over time true damage. [quote] Lucian, Draven, and Tristana are all extremely niche picks. Kalista's lane power went up a TON with the buffs and she still has the same utility she always brought. She's comfortably better than all of those picks at a higher MMR where people actually use her laning tools and her ultimate properly.[/quote] I love how you keep saying "At a higher MMR" yet all the things I said is information I researched through Challengers, Diamond players, and Masters. [[Kalista]] has a great kit, but even Riot says she is weak right now. [quote]Tank supports don't beat ranged supports in lane. That only happens at low MMR. Sorry. There's a reason why everybody picks ranged supports now... and would you look at that... that's exactly what MF support dumpsters.[/quote] Almost any Tank support with gap closing will dumpster a ranged support. You take a [[Leona]] and [[Lucian]] and put them against a [[Ashe]] and [[Miss Fortune]] and you won't see a [[Miss Fortune]] victory assuming both teams are equal skill. [quote] And please tell me what these "easy counterpicks" for Miss Fortune support are. I'll have to write them down and go sell the information to professional coaches and analysts, since they clearly don't have any counters for MF support.[/quote] Lots of people know counter to MF support. Lots of high elo people, lots of experts, lots of people in general. Majority says what I say because I've researched it before saying it, MF support is for specific situations. All you need is a support that can take a hit, cc, and gap close and you can beat MF support. Hell just pick [[Taric]] and she is doomed. MF support is also pretty reliant on the adc having a long range CC ability. You're like the only person I've seen saying MF support is good. They only used it in LCS because it specifically countered what they were facing and fit in with their strategy.[/quote]

[quote=H4xDefender]So I was going through your arguments and I found that I was just saying the same response every time. Wrong. Don't presume things that work in normal games and bronze mmr to work vs better players. I talk about high MMR all the time... because I literally play in it every game, and have 200+ high mmr players on my friends list (with a decent chunk of them in LCS/NACS) that I talk to every day about the game. Some of the things you say are just so wrong on a basic level that I just don't have the time to explain it to you. 1. Yorick does not outsplit Fiora and Jax. This is just a fact. 2. Taric/Leona and w/e melee support doesn't beat ranged supports in lane. This is just a fact. 3. Kalista was terrible on 6.24. She is not terrible on 7.1. 4. Vayne and Twitch are situationally better than Ashe, but there are a lot of situations where they are not better. Ashe is consistent and never a terrible pick. So she is tier 1. Read what I designate tier 1 as. 5. Nocturne and Warwick are one-dimensional champions that are easily shut down by players who understand how to exploit their weaknesses. You don't get exploited because you play in dumpster MMR and normal games. I can play AP riven and win in that MMR. It doesn't mean it is good. You don't have credibility in an argument unless you're a MINIMUM of Diamond V or work as a Coach/Analyst for a living. Sorry if that sounds elitist or douchey, but it's the truth. If you think you're at that level, then stop playing normal games and go get to that rank, and then maybe I'll take you seriously. A bunch of your arguments aren't really arguments, as much as you are giving your opinion and stating it as fact. This doesn't work if you are bronze. Go say these things to any high elo player and you'll get laughed at.[/quote]

[quote=Vicious Skittle][quote=Lasoor]Pretty strange seeing [[Warwick]] as Tier 4 for jungle when [[Warwick]] can out jungle almost every jungle champion in every aspect of jungling except ganking and even has more gank power than most junglers once he hits level 6. [[Warwick]] is probably the best jungle pick for low elo as well because he is able to easily turn a game around as soon as he hits his late game. So if you are losing a game because of your team you can easily turn it around just because [[Warwick]] can tank the entire enemy team long enough for his teammates to finish them. Also noticed [[Nocturne]] set at tier 3 when he is really strong right now and can do ganks really early. Honestly he feels broken because how strong he is. [[Rengar]] might have lots of burst, but if you build [[Nocturne]] full damage it looks like he 1 shots people every time he ults on them. He also can easily escape or stay in and kill every other enemy around him because unlike [[Rengar]] he is basic attack based not ability based. He snowballs easily. Another great thing about [[Nocturne]] is that once he hits level 4 he wins nearly any 1v1. There's only a few jungle champions who would be expected to win a 1v1 against [[Nocturne]] and a skilled [[Nocturne]] player can beat them too. [[Lee Sin]] is one of them, but it takes being good with [[Lee Sin]] and he can't win the face off consistently unless he builds full damage. Then you have [[Yorick]] at Tier 3 for top laners yet he can beat all your Tier 1 top laners and most of your Tier 2 top laners and is also one of the best team fighters and split pushers currently. Like I play a lot of [[Yorick]] and it would be hard for me to think of a match up he wouldn't win other than [[Darius]] who he can often tie with if the player is good. He'd lose vs a [[Xin Zhao]] potentially but could out play one and he also ties [[Tryndamere]]. Other than that he wins basically any match up or at least gives the player an advantage. Honestly I think this is just inaccurate overall for most of the champions. Like you got [[Ashe]] as Tier 1 adc yet put [[Vayne]], [[Twitch]], and [[Ezreal]] as Tier 2 yet those are currently better adcs than [[Ashe]] because of their strong early game and their mobility abilities to avoid ganks. And you got [[Kalista]] Tier 2 yet she is weak right now and certainly weaker than [[Lucian]], [[Draven]], and [[Tristana]] whom you put in Tier 3. And you put [[Miss Fortune]] support as Tier 1.... [[Miss Fortune]] support is so easily countered and the only time it is viable is when the enemy has a squishy ranged support. If the enemy picks a tank support and anything with strong gap closing then [[Miss Fortune]] is useless and she certainly can't peel for the adc. I'd take a [[Pantheon]] support over a [[Miss Fortune]] support in nearly every match up because he has way more supporting capability and killing capability. Yet you put him Tier 4.[/quote] You're thinking too linearly. Warwick is Tier 4 because of how hard other champions can bully him, clear camps faster and gank pre 6. WW only works in low elo because he has 2 things. Consistency and the lack of an opponent. Everyone knows what WW can do, and how to do it so in low elo it makes sense when peoples game knowledge is limited. They also don't directly compete with him, allowing him to freefarm until 6 where WW can snowball against hyper pushed lanes (which are also common in low elo). Plus when people don't kite, his steroids are great. Noc would be Tier 2.5 IMO, but the issue noc has is that he has to build full damage to be relevant and that his non-ult ganks are weaker than any other T2 champ. Sure he can 100-0 a squishy before his ult wares off, but in higher elos people will group/peel for their squishy champs. A tanky noc is also pretty shit. With the support meta being mages/enchanters Noc suffers when against the latter, as a Janna can single handedly prevent noc assassinating people. Yorick is a bad teamfighter in anywhere above gold, he gets kited too easily. Splitpushing he's amazing but the issue is right now that top lane is pretty much tanks/carries. Yorick will get beaten out by Jayce, Darius, a good Yasuo, a good Fiora and champs with any remote ability to leave his W. Tanks can just ignore him, turning it into a farm lane where they outshine Yorick once the lane ends (making him bad). If you get strong early or the enemy laner doesn't respect his pushing power he can shove into inhib faster than most, but a team with decent map awareness will stop him doing that, triggering a 4v5 and pressing that advantage. ADC is a utility meta, so yeah Ashe is tier 1. Ezreal is very safe, but doesn't bring much utility. Twitch I would argue is T1 in solo queue, because of his assassination and teamfight potential. Vayne is only good with skilled players and even then is destoryed in the current jungle meta. (Lee reveal, Vi point and click, rengar, hecarim). Kalistas buffs also brought her up a lot, she's decent now because of her ult and vision control (hello utility). Draven is hard to tier, because of his difficulty. Lucian is still shit right now and Trist has too many issues even though she's strong in the hands of a good player. MF Support is tier 1 because she's the counter, not that she gets countered. MF support is bad against tank supports/engage supports and great vs mage/enchanting supports. The meta is the latter, so she's decent. Plus she directly counters the other tier 1's. Insta killing Zyra plants and making it impossible for malz to keep his passive up. With any co-ordination MF support can basically be a carry with just a black cleaver (check TSM vs C9). In low elo I'm sure she's garbage because of her reliance on the lane partner. Also I love panth support, he's pure cheese but that's all he is. I wouldn't call him a support as much as "I want to make the enemy ADC a non-factor for 25 mins". Your logic has some ground, but you're thinking of the champion only each tim. You need to look at every champion in the game to make a tier list. MF support is a "meh" support, but specifically in this meta/popular champs she's great.[/quote]

[quote=I want to be a Blitzball]Call me surprised, but [[Cassiopeia]] in Tier 2 ADC? I mean, if [[Ziggs]] works, why not? Though I haven't heard of it or seen it. Do you think we'll eventually get some [[Rengar]] nerfs, seeing how he's just so much better than everything else? How much of an impact will the CotC nerfs have (if we go with current PBE changes)? Obviously nerfed early on, with the per level hp getting nerfed quite hard. Courage of the Colossus (Tier 6) Shield reduced to 3-54 from 10-180 Shield duration reduced to 3 seconds from 4[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod]You still haven't placed [[swain]] mid, is he simply not played there now? As for what Lasoor was saying, I'm glad I don't have to come here and repeat your answers all over. [[nocturne]], specifically, is extremely hard to pull off at higher elos because of how one dimensional he is. I play him and love him (those sweet solofarming carries), but at high elo you even get people hiding just beyond your vision with a carry solo pushing so you try to assassinate and suddenly you're getting gangbanged. He's simply not consistent enough, and early game he lacks things other top tier junglers like good diving potential with a high survivability rate and he's terrible if getting counterganked unless your laner(s) also brings good damage + CC. I don't even understand how you can think Warwick is good, most frequently played champs at the moment can kite him and his ult is extremely easy to cancel. He has a decent midgame and that's it, there's much better hard-cc jumpers in the meta, namely [[vi]]. On a sidenote, if [[gragas]] buffs pull through I expect him to come and annoy the crap out of everyone once more. Fun.[/quote]

[quote=Lasoor][quote]Warwick is Tier 4 because of how hard other champions can bully him, clear camps faster and gank pre 6. WW only works in low elo because he has 2 things. Consistency and the lack of an opponent. Everyone knows what WW can do, and how to do it so in low elo it makes sense when peoples game knowledge is limited. They also don't directly compete with him, allowing him to freefarm until 6 where WW can snowball against hyper pushed lanes (which are also common in low elo). Plus when people don't kite, his steroids are great. [/quote] I don't think you understand low elo very well. A majority of low elo ranked players watch high elo ranked player youtubers and try to play like them. They counter gank, they counter jungle, they gank constantly, and they try to keep their enemy jungler from being ahead of them. Most junglers can't beat a [[Warwick]]. That is a simple fact. Majority of junglers lose to [[Warwick]] especially post level 6. The only jungler I can think of off the top of my head that is a true hard counter to [[Warwick]] is [[Xin Zhao]]. Most other junglers would be destroyed if they invaded [[Warwick]]'s jungle. [[Warwick]] also has statistically higher clear speeds than most junglers as well. He's considered one of the faster jungle clearing champions. He also has the best sustain out of any champion I could think of. And ya no, I rarely am able to just free farm in low elo. People constantly try to mess with me and as a result I snowball before level 6 by getting early kills. There's only a few champions he can't fight until level 6 like [[Lee Sin]] and [[Jax]] for example. And if he ever is in danger he takes [[Flash]] for a reason. He should also be warding so he has time to react. [quote]Nocturne, specifically, is extremely hard to pull off at higher elos because of how one dimensional he is.[/quote] Except that when you pull him off he is insanely good. I would never make the claim that [[Nocturne]] or [[Warwick]] are easy. Them lacking more dimensional kits increases their difficulty because now you are a lot easier to counter. However, a skilled [[Warwick]] or [[Nocturne]] player both understands what counters it, how to avoid being countered, how to carry while being countered, and when picking that champion is ideal. [quote]I don't even understand how you can think Warwick is good, most frequently played champs at the moment can kite him and his ult is extremely easy to cancel. He has a decent midgame and that's it, there's much better hard-cc jumpers in the meta, namely Vi.[/quote] Probably the reason for that is because I play him the right way and you don't. He is not meant to be fought as a chaser or assassin. He has a weak assassin kit and a weak chasing kit. He is a team fighter. Your goal with him is to keep the enemy off your back line or jump on the enemy's back line. You build high tank and Tenacity to prevent yourself from being locked down and bursted to oblivion. If the enemy focuses you down they lose the fight in majority of occasions as a result. If they don't focus you down they risk you cleaning them all up to still win the fight. The only time a skilled [[Warwick]] player is going to not bring his team a win in a team fight is if he is either massively behind somehow which he shouldn't be or if the enemy team is so far ahead that they can just kill him or his team quickly. His ultimate isn't his only useful tool and that is something people too often forget. You could go a whole fight without needing his ultimate and raking up 3 kills 2v3. It's about knowing the champion, knowing its limits, and knowing how to play him. I would argue that [[Skarner]] brings every thing to the table that [[Warwick]] does except does it better however that is also in limited situations. He is a far better comparison than [[Vi]] that's for certain.[/quote]

[quote=Elusive Ferret][quote=Lasoor]I don't think you understand low elo very well.[/quote] I mean, does anyone??? :D[/quote]

[quote=Lasoor][quote]I mean, does anyone??? :D[/quote] Good point.[/quote]

[quote=Elusive Ferret][quote=FalseoGod]On a sidenote, if [[gragas]] buffs pull through I expect him to come and annoy the crap out of everyone once more. Fun.[/quote] I'll tell ya though, the Full AP Grag players are fucking beasts. I've seen a couple in the last few weeks. I think he's very underated, which I'm glad because of how scary he is when built full AP.[/quote]

[quote=FalseoGod][quote=Elusive Ferret][quote=FalseoGod]On a sidenote, if [[gragas]] buffs pull through I expect him to come and annoy the crap out of everyone once more. Fun.[/quote] I'll tell ya though, the Full AP Grag players are fucking beasts. I've seen a couple in the last few weeks. I think he's very underated, which I'm glad because of how scary he is when built full AP.[/quote] Yeah, I have no idea either. And if he has E + Flash and you're a squishy might as well open the shop already. @Lasoor Pretending that watching high elo players play qualifies you to give high level of play opinions (and say everyone else is wrong because you somehow became enlightened on how Warwick is supposed to be played) is like saying just because I saw a chef cooking I'm instantly qualified to open my own restaurant. Bronze players aren't in Bronze due to chance or coincidence, they aren't just misunderstood challenger players who somehow got unlucky. I've literally won three consecutive AP [[ashe]] games in bronze 5 and witnessed firsthand the level of lack of awareness (be it map, damage involved, cooldowns, items, levels, power spikes) and overall skill involved. They're players with clear room for improvement, and if you want to stand there stroking yourself and saying "I'm good" I don't know if any of us cares at this point.[/quote]