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Candid league discussion, Week #1: Is...

Creator: throatslasher March 15, 2013 1:46pm
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throatslasher
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I'm not talking about the occassional buff jack. Is true counterjungling dead?

We've seen the prevalence of heavy counterjungles on the decline since the start of season 3, mostly due to the increased durability of jungle champs: Shyvana can't just sneeze on wraiths and get all of them. Riot intentionally made it so that counterjungling would take considerably LONGER than before, and hence, riskier.

Added to the fact that camps are tougher is the fact that wards are increasingly more prevalent. As the game has evolved from S1-S3, the amount of wards per game has drastically gone up, thanks in part to ruby sightstone among other things. People are warding earlier and more often.

I've definitely noticed that at high elo, counterjungling is almost impossible at most stages of the game. I've felt completely assured that they wouldn't have vision of me stealing something, and low and behold, I would watch the replay and see that bot lane warded their red at the start of the game. How random! I've definitely been killed a ****load more times counterjungling than I did in season 2.

What are your current thoughts on counterjungling? Viable strategy, or too high-risk-low-reward?

S2 godly Counterjunglers that are nowrarely played, or if they're played, it's for other reasons;
Mundo
Shyvana
Lee sin
Nocturne


On a side note, is increased wraith durability an indirect nerf to certain mid champs? (mordekaiser, morgana, and others heavily relied on wraith farm to succeed. In s2, I would say in champ select that wraiths were mine when I played morde, and I would secure wraiths every 60 seconds like clockwork, and sometimes even THEIR wraiths.)
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H4xDefender
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Define true counterjungling.

The increase to wraith durability is a slight nerf to the mids in s2 that took wraiths on spawn, but it don't think it makes a difference so huge that their pick rates and ban rates should be affected but I could be wrong.
throatslasher
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Back in S2, I would play shyvana into slow clear junglers or low cc mids/junglers with the intention of stealing their entire jungle all game long. I believe the emphasis for junglers has shifted into ganking, farming the jungle, and taking lane farm.

In s2, ganks were very important, but they were different. It was pretty much a 2 minute 1st clear, and gank top with double buff and level 3 when they are both level 2. While one side would go for a level 3 gank, the other side might commit to either counter-ganking or stealing the jungle while the other jungler tried to hero for 1st blood. That's not very viable anymore since most tops/mids go to lane with at LEAST 1 ward.
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Hm. Counterjungling in general is definitely weaker, due to camps taking longer and more wards being placed at level one, but but it is certainly not dead. Instead of mindlessly walking in and taking camps, you have to actually pay attention to item starts of laners (particularly solo laners) and try to get the general placement of their wards. In S2, it didn't matter who you picked, counterjungling was possible on anybody, just easier and more efficient for some. In S3 this isn't the case. Only certain champions can counterjungle well now, just stick to them and play smart and you will be ok.
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I've definitely felt it. In s2 i'd play heavy counterjunglers like olaf n shaco and acquire firsblood on pretty much whatever jungler they had, now the amounts of wards placed from especially supports render that ****ing impossible.

I stopped doing it altogether unless my support wards the enemy jungle. AKA duoq-ing with my support.
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i think with the gigantic shift of small minion health -> large minion health it balances out fairly well, at least for Morde. You can't just smite large wraith and walk out anymore, which is a bit of a nerf, but you can take the 3 smalls pretty fast, not that they matter a whole lot beyond the first or second clear. It's still really easy for Morde to take wraiths past lvl 4, put w on, E, wait for small to die, Q, keep auto attacking and it's dead pret soon.


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Yep and true roamers (champs that literally belonged in no lane, went into the enemy jungle frequently and ganked lanes very often) died a long time ago too.

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Yep. Counterjungling is almost none existant. Most of the time when I am jungling I barely have to buy wards because of the new meta where people buy 2 wards and pots and the sightstone. My jungle entrance is warded by the ward my mid champ placed in his side bush, allowing me to see anyone trying to go for me wraiths and bot lane perma wards their tribush, allowing me and them to see anyone walk into my jungle.

Only ward worth buying is the one you shove at baron for some more vision.

I rarely counterjungle because it is so risky. I do it a few times, but I generally ping my top laner to shove his lane and roam the enemies jungle for a bit. I'd say counterjungling is very dead, but now, it's all about roaming in the jungle and warding the enemy jungle here and there. It's surprising how many people don't do the red buff in the sight bush allowing for an easy gank.

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Yep. Counterjungling is almost none existant. Most of the time when I am jungling I barely have to buy wards because of the new meta where people buy 2 wards and pots and the sightstone. My jungle entrance is warded by the ward my mid champ placed in his side bush, allowing me to see anyone trying to go for me wraiths and bot lane perma wards their tribush, allowing me and them to see anyone walk into my jungle.

Only ward worth buying is the one you shove at baron for some more vision.

I rarely counterjungle because it is so risky. I do it a few times, but I generally ping my top laner to shove his lane and roam the enemies jungle for a bit. I'd say counterjungling is very dead, but now, it's all about roaming in the jungle and warding the enemy jungle here and there. It's surprising how many people don't do the red buff in the sight bush allowing for an easy gank.


is it just me or are you contradicting yourself?
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Got counter-jungled today, got double kill :3

"A person giving you advice isn't perfect and has their own shortcomings but they may give you the piece that you're missing."
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