Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides Mobafire League of Legends Build Guides
's Forum Avatar

Candid league discussion, Week #1: Is...

Creator: throatslasher
March 15, 2013 1:46pm
27 posts page 1 of 3 Forums » General Discussion » Candid league discussion, Week #1: Is counterjungling dead?
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by throatslasher » March 15, 2013 1:46pm | Report
I'm not talking about the occassional buff jack. Is true counterjungling dead?

We've seen the prevalence of heavy counterjungles on the decline since the start of season 3, mostly due to the increased durability of jungle champs: Shyvana can't just sneeze on wraiths and get all of them. Riot intentionally made it so that counterjungling would take considerably LONGER than before, and hence, riskier.

Added to the fact that camps are tougher is the fact that wards are increasingly more prevalent. As the game has evolved from S1-S3, the amount of wards per game has drastically gone up, thanks in part to ruby sightstone among other things. People are warding earlier and more often.

I've definitely noticed that at high elo, counterjungling is almost impossible at most stages of the game. I've felt completely assured that they wouldn't have vision of me stealing something, and low and behold, I would watch the replay and see that bot lane warded their red at the start of the game. How random! I've definitely been killed a ****load more times counterjungling than I did in season 2.

What are your current thoughts on counterjungling? Viable strategy, or too high-risk-low-reward?

S2 godly Counterjunglers that are nowrarely played, or if they're played, it's for other reasons;
Mundo
Shyvana
Lee sin
Nocturne


On a side note, is increased wraith durability an indirect nerf to certain mid champs? (mordekaiser, morgana, and others heavily relied on wraith farm to succeed. In s2, I would say in champ select that wraiths were mine when I played morde, and I would secure wraiths every 60 seconds like clockwork, and sometimes even THEIR wraiths.)
BOW DOWNBOW DOWN
throatslasher's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
throatslasher
<Member>
Posts: 2577
Joined: Aug 21st, 2012
Rep: Distinguished (248)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by H4xDefender » March 15, 2013 1:59pm | Report
Define true counterjungling.

The increase to wraith durability is a slight nerf to the mids in s2 that took wraiths on spawn, but it don't think it makes a difference so huge that their pick rates and ban rates should be affected but I could be wrong.
H4xDefender's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
H4xDefender
<Veteran>
Posts: 2035
Joined: Nov 20th, 2011
Rep: Established (122)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by throatslasher » March 15, 2013 2:05pm | Report
Back in S2, I would play shyvana into slow clear junglers or low cc mids/junglers with the intention of stealing their entire jungle all game long. I believe the emphasis for junglers has shifted into ganking, farming the jungle, and taking lane farm.

In s2, ganks were very important, but they were different. It was pretty much a 2 minute 1st clear, and gank top with double buff and level 3 when they are both level 2. While one side would go for a level 3 gank, the other side might commit to either counter-ganking or stealing the jungle while the other jungler tried to hero for 1st blood. That's not very viable anymore since most tops/mids go to lane with at LEAST 1 ward.
BOW DOWNBOW DOWN
throatslasher's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
throatslasher
<Member>
Posts: 2577
Joined: Aug 21st, 2012
Rep: Distinguished (248)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by H4xDefender » March 15, 2013 2:12pm | Report
Hm. Counterjungling in general is definitely weaker, due to camps taking longer and more wards being placed at level one, but but it is certainly not dead. Instead of mindlessly walking in and taking camps, you have to actually pay attention to item starts of laners (particularly solo laners) and try to get the general placement of their wards. In S2, it didn't matter who you picked, counterjungling was possible on anybody, just easier and more efficient for some. In S3 this isn't the case. Only certain champions can counterjungle well now, just stick to them and play smart and you will be ok.
H4xDefender's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
H4xDefender
<Veteran>
Posts: 2035
Joined: Nov 20th, 2011
Rep: Established (122)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Pølsemanden » March 15, 2013 5:25pm | Report
I've definitely felt it. In s2 i'd play heavy counterjunglers like olaf n shaco and acquire firsblood on pretty much whatever jungler they had, now the amounts of wards placed from especially supports render that ****ing impossible.

I stopped doing it altogether unless my support wards the enemy jungle. AKA duoq-ing with my support.
Ty MM and Blood for the sigs :3 | Rammus is comming back - heard it here first!


"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
Pølsemanden's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Pølsemanden
<Scout>
Posts: 3800
Joined: Jan 6th, 2011
Rep: Established (144)
Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Nighthawk » March 15, 2013 5:42pm | Report
i think with the gigantic shift of small minion health -> large minion health it balances out fairly well, at least for Morde. You can't just smite large wraith and walk out anymore, which is a bit of a nerf, but you can take the 3 smalls pretty fast, not that they matter a whole lot beyond the first or second clear. It's still really easy for Morde to take wraiths past lvl 4, put w on, E, wait for small to die, Q, keep auto attacking and it's dead pret soon.


Nighthawk's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Nighthawk
<Veteran>
Posts: 10022
Joined: Dec 7th, 2010
Rep: Renowned (680)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by DarkPercy » March 15, 2013 9:24pm | Report
Yep and true roamers (champs that literally belonged in no lane, went into the enemy jungle frequently and ganked lanes very often) died a long time ago too.
Nighthawk:

quit flirting with my waifu

or i'll fight you

TO THE DEATH

DarkPercy's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
DarkPercy
<Scout>
Posts: 1825
Joined: Nov 13th, 2010
Rep: Prominent (151)
Blog   |   Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by drunken0elf » March 16, 2013 8:40am | Report
Yep. Counterjungling is almost none existant. Most of the time when I am jungling I barely have to buy wards because of the new meta where people buy 2 wards and pots and the sightstone. My jungle entrance is warded by the ward my mid champ placed in his side bush, allowing me to see anyone trying to go for me wraiths and bot lane perma wards their tribush, allowing me and them to see anyone walk into my jungle.

Only ward worth buying is the one you shove at baron for some more vision.

I rarely counterjungle because it is so risky. I do it a few times, but I generally ping my top laner to shove his lane and roam the enemies jungle for a bit. I'd say counterjungling is very dead, but now, it's all about roaming in the jungle and warding the enemy jungle here and there. It's surprising how many people don't do the red buff in the sight bush allowing for an easy gank.

Thanks to Amazing Monkey for the sig. Just like his name, he's amazing
drunken0elf's Forum Avatar

drunken0elf
<Member>
Posts: 225
Joined: Dec 15th, 2011
Rep: Unremarkable (8)
Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Pølsemanden » March 16, 2013 8:45am | Report

Yep. Counterjungling is almost none existant. Most of the time when I am jungling I barely have to buy wards because of the new meta where people buy 2 wards and pots and the sightstone. My jungle entrance is warded by the ward my mid champ placed in his side bush, allowing me to see anyone trying to go for me wraiths and bot lane perma wards their tribush, allowing me and them to see anyone walk into my jungle.

Only ward worth buying is the one you shove at baron for some more vision.

I rarely counterjungle because it is so risky. I do it a few times, but I generally ping my top laner to shove his lane and roam the enemies jungle for a bit. I'd say counterjungling is very dead, but now, it's all about roaming in the jungle and warding the enemy jungle here and there. It's surprising how many people don't do the red buff in the sight bush allowing for an easy gank.


is it just me or are you contradicting yourself?
Ty MM and Blood for the sigs :3 | Rammus is comming back - heard it here first!


"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
Pølsemanden's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Pølsemanden
<Scout>
Posts: 3800
Joined: Jan 6th, 2011
Rep: Established (144)
Profile
Permalink | Quote | PM | +Rep | Commend by Joxuu » March 16, 2013 8:45am | Report
Got counter-jungled today, got double kill :3

"A person giving you advice isn't perfect and has their own shortcomings but they may give you the piece that you're missing."
Joxuu's Forum Avatar

Awards Showcase
Show more awards
Joxuu
<Veteran>
Posts: 3974
Joined: Apr 7th, 2012
Rep: Esteemed (329)
Blog   |   Profile

Quick Reply:

Guest commenting is currently disabled, please log in or sign up to respond!