I like and agree with the discussion so far, but I think you guys are jumping the gun a bit. With the season starting to pick up we don't really know what to expect. I still counter jungle and it really puts the enemy behind if your doing it correctly.
I just carry a
Vision Ward and make sure Smite is up. With both those I'm pretty comfortable crossing river. Counter jungling, especially buffs, should be planned ahead of time with laner support.
I just carry a
Vision Ward and make sure Smite is up. With both those I'm pretty comfortable crossing river. Counter jungling, especially buffs, should be planned ahead of time with laner support.
+Rep me if i'm useful!
quote from my upcomming shaco guide:
"In s3 the significance of counterjungling has fallen substantially. Every single change from the s1 jungle to the current one has made counterjungling less significant.
Back in s1 if you killed amumu at his red he would be crippled for the rest of the game, his jungle would be terrible duo to blue-reliance and you could win the game from just that 1 kill.
In s3 he gets set behind half a level but it's all k because he can get health and mana back from the creeps so he can just afk-farm it back up.
So don't bother focusing on it. It should be something which you do on the run not something you plan to focus your game on."
speaking of which, throat do you mind me linking this thread in my guide?
"In s3 the significance of counterjungling has fallen substantially. Every single change from the s1 jungle to the current one has made counterjungling less significant.
Back in s1 if you killed amumu at his red he would be crippled for the rest of the game, his jungle would be terrible duo to blue-reliance and you could win the game from just that 1 kill.
In s3 he gets set behind half a level but it's all k because he can get health and mana back from the creeps so he can just afk-farm it back up.
So don't bother focusing on it. It should be something which you do on the run not something you plan to focus your game on."
speaking of which, throat do you mind me linking this thread in my guide?
Ty MM and Blood for the sigs :3 | Rammus is comming back - heard it here first!
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
Quoted:
It should be something which you do on the run not something you plan to focus your game on.
I do agree it is much easier to recover from something like that than it use to be, but with experience mainly coming from the big monster you can really set people behind. Maybe you start at their red and invade their second blue. While your there you grab the big wraith/wolf on the way out, this way you know the enemy will have to cross into your jungle to stay even in levels. That or waste time waiting to farm.
+Rep me if i'm useful!
BusDriver210 wrote:
I do agree it is much easier to recover from something like that than it use to be, but with experience mainly coming from the big monster you can really set people behind. Maybe you start at their red and invade their second blue. While your there you grab the big wraith/wolf on the way out, this way you know the enemy will have to cross into your jungle to stay even in levels. That or waste time waiting to farm.
a wraith or even a big buff (at some point) can be nullified with a kill-gank. counterjungling in S3 is only worth it if you find the jungler and kill him (repeatedly is preferable), imo. a stollen buff can easily made up for. one of the reasons olaf was so beastly at preseason was the fact the he was insane fast, rather sustained and a scary duelist. he could gank before almost anyone, denying a chance for the other jungler to show his face. invading him early was very risky, invading him later was rather stupid. the only chance you had as a jungler vs olaf was to hope he was stupid and his lanes performed badly. besides, taking more damage from monsters means you have less hp, therefore you are taking a bigger risk.
i think it's clear riot wants the action to be in lanes and objectives. also making the game more accessible to plain players, not forcing too much strategy onto them.
Pheyniex wrote:
a wraith or even a big buff (at some point) can be nullified with a kill-gank. counterjungling in S3 is only worth it if you find the jungler and kill him (repeatedly is preferable), imo. a stollen buff can easily made up for.
I don't think its that easy and you make it seem like ganking always works. Putting the enemy jungler behind can have a drastic effect on the game. Yes the effect might not be as "GG 20min surrender", but it still forces the enemy to catch up. Maybe the enemy trys that by ganking more often, maybe he stays and farms back up. My point is that setting a jungler behind, regardless of his ability to bounce back, puts the enemy at a disadvantage. If you don't use that time to build more advantage, thats your miss play.
Pheyniex wrote:
i think it's clear riot wants the action to be in lanes and objectives. also making the game more accessible to plain players, not forcing too much strategy onto them.
I agree, but that isn't enough reason to simply stop counter jungling. If you do your giving the enemy a chance to get ahead, which is a bad idea 100% of the time.
What ifs and hypotheticals aside, building advantage wins games and counter jungling can get you rolling.
+Rep me if i'm useful!
BusDriver210 wrote:
I don't think its that easy and you make it seem like ganking always works. Putting the enemy jungler behind can have a drastic effect on the game. Yes the effect might not be as "GG 20min surrender", but it still forces the enemy to catch up. Maybe the enemy trys that by ganking more often, maybe he stays and farms back up. My point is that setting a jungler behind, regardless of his ability to bounce back, puts the enemy at a disadvantage. If you don't use that time to build more advantage, thats your miss play.
I agree, but that isn't enough reason to simply stop counter jungling. If you do your giving the enemy a chance to get ahead, which is a bad idea 100% of the time.
What ifs and hypotheticals aside, building advantage wins games and counter jungling can get you rolling.
i didn't say you should be ganking 24/7. it sets you back as much (if not more) as getting counterjungled if you fail ganks, hence making sure it is successful is a must. if you counterjungle you risk the jungler choosing to pressure your lanes. that is most probably his best bet, bc being idle certainly doesn't win you games (no camps, need xp? gank please)
I just was emphasizing that ganking is currently more safe/profitable than counterjungling alone, except if you manage a clean kill in their jungle. ofc, if you absolutely want no risk, make sure your laners ward and control properly, ocasionally letting you farm some creeps in lane (the ***** way).
BusDriver210 wrote:
I don't think its that easy and you make it seem like ganking always works. Putting the enemy jungler behind can have a drastic effect on the game. Yes the effect might not be as "GG 20min surrender", but it still forces the enemy to catch up. Maybe the enemy trys that by ganking more often, maybe he stays and farms back up. My point is that setting a jungler behind, regardless of his ability to bounce back, puts the enemy at a disadvantage. If you don't use that time to build more advantage, thats your miss play.
I agree, but that isn't enough reason to simply stop counter jungling. If you do your giving the enemy a chance to get ahead, which is a bad idea 100% of the time.
What ifs and hypotheticals aside, building advantage wins games and counter jungling can get you rolling.
counterjungling is not worth it anymore BECAUSE of the little that you gain from it, you hardly even get 1/6th of a level in front. Especially not if you account the risk you put into it.
Ty MM and Blood for the sigs :3 | Rammus is comming back - heard it here first!
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
"Carrying"-guide | My reviewservice
Pheyniex wrote:
I just was emphasizing that ganking is currently more safe/profitable than counterjungling alone,
I agree, but only when it comes to the best case scenario. Ganking doesn't always come out profitable and if your being counter jungled a failed gank can put you even further behind. Counter jungling can be worth a great deal more than a failed gank when we take into account the enemy jungler's time spent running around. Effectively stealing buffs can lead to less dangerous ganks, making it easier on your laners.
There are too many factors when it comes to counter jungling to simply put it on the bench and say its not worth it. When opportunity knocks, I rise to meet the challenge. Risk, or none.
+Rep me if i'm useful!
You need to log in before commenting.
riot made the jungle changes assuming players would keep on farming for 40 min but that is the change in the game. especially in competitive where the namesake of the game are objectives and map control. in soloQ we ricks seeing neither (40min farm or objectives).