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What do you think of MobaFire's Scouting System?
Vynertje wrote:
you don't need to have experience on every single champ to know what works, and what does not.
I've played so many games of league, I know what works and what does not upon only seeing it.
I could not disagree more. Even among champion mains there are specific nuances that are different in builds and play-style. To say you can extrapolate that experience from just glancing at a build is preposterous.
SOAC Bas
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Vynertje wrote:
I did not read everything but really, you don't need to have experience on every single champ to know what works, and what does not.
I've played so many games of league, I know what works and what does not upon only seeing it. I don't need to test anything anymore on about 90% of the champions in the game right now, even though I have only ever played about 40 champions at a high level. Only VERY occasionally I see something that causes me to doubt my own ability to judge the content on.
That isn't what we stated. Please read everything. The statement is if you don't want to take the practical time on a champ to test out a build, then you shouldn't take the time to add your scouted opinion. We are not stating or requesting you to be a pro or main champ, but to have a set of games where you can grasp a basic understanding of a champ. If you don't want to take the time to play a specific champ, then simply don't scout it, and move on to a champ you want to scout. This is not an attack on your knowledge or your understanding of league.
If I have a question on a mid laner - I am asking Grandmaster D, and he almost always prefaces it with in my experience and here is what I have seen, and if he doesn't know he clearly explains to me what he understands based on looking over the champ, but that he can't really comment since he has no experience.
This is about taking the power to promote or bury a guide, and using it in the most logical and optimal way. You may have a great grasp of the basic nuances of mid lane dynamics, Vynertje, but if you never play Kha'zik mid than your grasp on his mechanics and builds at mid is limited at best. While you can clearly say okay building An ap gp/10 item is bad, you could not logically give a scouted grade on a Kha'zik guide that lists ad items and gives matchups even if the matchups are wrong.
Without practical experience on that champ your ability to grade whether a decent guide is good or great is flawed and biased based on a presumption with no experience to back it up.
Podcaster and producer of community driven content - sittingonacouch.com
SOAC Bas wrote:
Without practical experience on that champ your ability to grade whether a decent guide is good or great is flawed and biased based on a presumption with no experience to back it up.
Aye, comparing good and bad or comparing good and great are indeed two different things. I agree that with a lot of guides it is easy by just using common sense whether a guide is good or bad, however if we were to pick only 1 guide per champion to scout it a way of dealing that is indeed by using own experience, practising the builds that the author suggests.
What my own tactic is however, is if I find a certain questionable pick in the authors cheatsheet, then I will look in the guide if there is a proper explanation why this person picks what (s)he picks. If it is clear after the explanation, I am content, if not (whether I have experience yes or no) then I am not content. These are guides after all, not just builds, so if one scout doesn't have the experience for that particular champion, then (s)he should be able to learn it via the guide.
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I think vyn meant that if someone says that currently, jungle Kog maw is really strong, he'll know that the guide is bad since we're all aware of kog maw's inability to jungle effectively.
If someone writes that you need to rush nashors tooth on adc lucian he'll know that the build choice is poor and that the guide contains faulty information.
Then again I haven't read any other part of this discussion so sorry if what I said has already been mentioned.
Btw, I'm nearly certain that most of gold players and above and heck, even most silver and bronze players that have over 300/400 games have played every champion at least once and have seen them be played multiple times.
Taking that in to account, this whole argument leads to a state where only certain champion mains may judge a guide's validity, which is very unrealistic.
If someone writes that you need to rush nashors tooth on adc lucian he'll know that the build choice is poor and that the guide contains faulty information.
Then again I haven't read any other part of this discussion so sorry if what I said has already been mentioned.
Btw, I'm nearly certain that most of gold players and above and heck, even most silver and bronze players that have over 300/400 games have played every champion at least once and have seen them be played multiple times.
Taking that in to account, this whole argument leads to a state where only certain champion mains may judge a guide's validity, which is very unrealistic.
Again, you don't need practical experience to know whether a guide is great or trash. You might not know about every little thing indeed, but in the grand scheme of things most things can be purely theorycrafted or judged by what you've seen in your own games or in pro games. That being said, I don't need to test something before I scout a guide; only when I am in doubt I would ever do so.
I think vyn meant that if someone says that currently, jungle Kog maw is really strong, he'll know that the guide is bad since we're all aware of kog maw's inability to jungle effectively.
If someone writes that you need to rush nashors tooth on adc lucian he'll know that the build choice is poor and that the guide contains faulty information.
Well, I mean that I can judge 90% of a guide only on what I know instead of having to try it out. I might not know whether it is best to go BT or TF first on lucian, but I know that these two items are in lucian's core build.
Quoted:
I think vyn meant that if someone says that currently, jungle Kog maw is really strong, he'll know that the guide is bad since we're all aware of kog maw's inability to jungle effectively.
If someone writes that you need to rush nashors tooth on adc lucian he'll know that the build choice is poor and that the guide contains faulty information.
Well, I mean that I can judge 90% of a guide only on what I know instead of having to try it out. I might not know whether it is best to go BT or TF first on lucian, but I know that these two items are in lucian's core build.
Vynertje wrote:
I can judge 90% of a guide only on what I know instead of having to try it out. I might not know whether it is best to go BT or TF first on lucian, but I know that these two items are in lucian's core build.
But this is exactly the point. You can't know unless you had more experience. Sure, you can sort through the vast number of guides and dismiss them quickly. But what about several good guides? You can't...
And that is the quality I think people expect. It should be more than just "another vote". It should be special and mean something.
NateKiller wrote:
But this is exactly the point. You can't know unless you had more experience. Sure, you can sort through the vast number of guides and dismiss them quickly. But what about several good guides? You can't...
And that is the quality I think people expect. It should be more than just "another vote". It should be special and mean something.
I think it would 100% kill scouting if you were to demand people to try out for such minor (typically preference related) differences. I myself am too busy with school and my own solo queue adventures to test every little thing out.
Vynertje wrote:
I think it would 100% kill scouting if you were to demand people to try out for such minor (typically preference related) differences.
Possibly, but at-least scouting would have a defined purpose. What is it's current one? Aside from the transparency issues holding it back, the scout voting is not interesting to view.
SOAC Bas
<Member>
<Member>
XeresAce wrote:
I think vyn meant that if someone says that currently, jungle Kog maw is really strong, he'll know that the guide is bad since we're all aware of kog maw's inability to jungle effectively.
If someone writes that you need to rush nashors tooth on adc lucian he'll know that the build choice is poor and that the guide contains faulty information.
Then again I haven't read any other part of this discussion so sorry if what I said has already been mentioned.
Btw, I'm nearly certain that most of gold players and above and heck, even most silver and bronze players that have over 300/400 games have played every champion at least once and have seen them be played multiple times.
Taking that in to account, this whole argument leads to a state where only certain champion mains may judge a guide's validity, which is very unrealistic.
You misunderstand our point. We aren't saying that grading an AP kogmaw jungle poorly when you haven't tried it is the issue (this isn't what scouting is or should be used for). Scouts take highly rated guides and then say okay this is the one we approve of. This is a big deal. You are misunderstanding the point of the scouting system.
I trust Vynertje with jungle guides, because he mains jungle. He routinely plays the role and can give me a very good idea on why specific champs are poor choices to jungle. However, if he comes in and immediately down ranks a teemo jungle guide with the basis of it's **** because his clear time is poor and he can't gank at all. I would call him on it if he had not explored the possibility of it before immediately declaring it bad. I have played Teemo jungle several times, while it's not fantastic it works significantly better than I would have assumed. In fact the only downside is the initial clear time pre Wriggles Lantern is slightly worse than Warwick's early jungle clear time. Combined with the fact that you have no way of Controlling a fight once you intiate. However his passive combined with W and shrooming behind your target leads to some fun ganks. Is it viable in high level play? Probably not, but can it work? Yes.
Example: Gragas jungle is soaring in popularity. When someone first started hyping it they were roundly criticized for being ignorant of jungle mechanics, except they were right and jungle gragas works. I can almost guarantee that if earlier this year someone had dropped a Gragas jungle guide on here many of you would have down-voted it and negative scouted it without even giving it a try. This is the problem.
Scouting is supposed to be the top rank and top notch of the system. So placing a vote with that much "power" into the hands of a player who has no interest in attempting to see if a solid guide works or not should not be involved in scouting that champ.
Podcaster and producer of community driven content - sittingonacouch.com
I've played so many games of league, I know what works and what does not upon only seeing it. I don't need to test anything anymore on about 90% of the champions in the game right now, even though I have only ever played about 40 champions at a high level. Only VERY occasionally I see something that causes me to doubt my own ability to judge the content on.