MobaFire's Scouting System

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=SOAC Bas] [quote=XeresAce] I can almost guarantee that if earlier this year someone had dropped a Gragas jungle guide on here many of you would have down-voted it and negative scouted it without even giving it a try. This is the problem. [/quote] Jungle Gragas got buffed very recently though, as his E now does full damage to jungle camps instead of half or whatever the percentage was. Just thought I'd point that out. :P[/quote]

[quote=SOAC Bas][quote=Vynertje] I think it would 100% kill scouting if you were to demand people to try out for such minor (typically preference related) differences. I myself am too busy with school and my own solo queue adventures to test every little thing out. [/quote] Then let it die. As of right now, the scouting is flawed and adds no value to the site. Why would it kill it? We aren't asking all of the scouts to judge all of the guides and try out all of the guides. Why not have selected scouts who deal with jungle guides, another group that deals with solo lanes, another group that deals with bot lanes. Why does a player who has no solo lane practical experience get the ability to tell me my guide is not good solely because he doesn't agree with certain points. If you can't take the time to try out a jungle guide than don't vote on it. This would make your vote actually worth something. Right now, it's worth zero to anyone who sees it. TLDR: If you can't take the time to properly scout a champion guide, than don't vote on it. If you do have the time than do it right and vote on it. Make your vote actually count.[/quote]

[quote=SOAC Bas][quote=Vapora Dark] Jungle Gragas got buffed very recently though, as his E now does full damage to jungle camps instead of half or whatever the percentage was. Just thought I'd point that out. :P [/quote] I am well aware of it, but when Bil28 our jungle broadcaster mentioned he was messing around with it. Lasty was a bit taken back, and at first went negative on the idea. However, his respect for Bil28 led him to be open minded until Bil28 got back with his findings. This does not seem to be the approach with many of the players who vote or have scouting privileges here. Simply based on the comments posted it almost seems that some of the current rank of scouts treat this privilege like it's a staff of pain they can bring down on guides they feel don't match their non-tested approval. We were asked what could be done to improve it, and it seems that some of the scouts feel it's beneath them to actually do some work in order to be able to make an educated opinion.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=SOAC Bas] [quote=Vynertje] I think it would 100% kill scouting if you were to demand people to try out for such minor (typically preference related) differences. I myself am too busy with school and my own solo queue adventures to test every little thing out. [/quote] Then let it die. As of right now, the scouting is flawed and adds no value to the site. Why would it kill it? We aren't asking all of the scouts to judge all of the guides and try out all of the guides. Why not have selected scouts who deal with jungle guides, another group that deals with solo lanes, another group that deals with bot lanes. Why does a player who has no solo lane practical experience get the ability to tell me my guide is not good solely because he doesn't agree with certain points. If you can't take the time to try out a jungle guide than don't vote on it. This would make your vote actually worth something. Right now, it's worth zero to anyone who sees it. TLDR: If you can't take the time to properly scout a champion guide, than don't vote on it. If you do have the time than do it right and vote on it. Make your vote actually count. [/quote] The point of scouting though, is that the Scouts are [i]meant[/i] to be ( or should be, at least ) knowledgeable players who know more about the game than most other players. A scout +scouting a guide is like saying "I'm an experienced player, and I recommend this guide because in my experience, it seems optimal". A scout -scouting a guide is like saying "I'm an experienced player, and in my experience, this guide is wrong". Testing a guide would require hundreds of games of playtesting. One game is not enough, you can't just try one guide in one game, try a different guide in another, and say the best one is whichever you had a better score with. There are way too many variables in this game. That's why the Scouts are meant to just +scout or -scout based on what they think is optimal for a champion. If they make a mistake, tough luck, shit happens. You can't expect them to play-test LB with magic pen glyphs over 100 games then compare it to LB with AP glyphs over the course of 100 games, and see which they found better. It's not like them -scouting a guide has any negative effect on it. It's just a bonus for the guides which do get featured, guides which are recommended by experienced players.[/quote]

[quote=Bioalchemist]^ well than it isn't any different than the voting system. if that is the case than scouting is similar to a 'our recommended pick' label that businesses use. however if it is going to be that way...it would be cool to add the scouts name to their vote. such as 'so and so recommends this guide' not for guide improvement. simply to highlight a guide based on subjective opinion. thats fine. let it be that. i think that has already been brought up as a possibility in this thread.[/quote]

[quote=NateKiller][quote=Vapora Dark] That's why the Scouts are meant to just +scout or -scout based on what they think is optimal for a champion. If they make a mistake, tough luck, shit happens. [/quote] This is the wrong approach and exactly why it's an issue. Furthermore, I'd argue most people that play this game are "experienced" at this point. But it's also not about just experience, it's about optimal experience. Is the scout high elo? Is this their main they are voting on? Whatever criteria we choose to make it. The point is: the scouting system needs more definition. Right now it's just a second vote.[/quote]

[quote=Bioalchemist][quote=NateKiller] Right now it's just a second vote. [/quote] yup.[/quote]

[quote=SOAC Bas][quote=Vapora Dark] The point of scouting though, is that the Scouts are [i]meant[/i] to be ( or should be, at least ) knowledgeable players who know more about the game than most other players. A scout +scouting a guide is like saying "I'm an experienced player, and I recommend this guide because in my experience, it seems optimal". [/quote] How is this proven? I am experienced in sales and water tanks. Does this mean I can design an entire plumbing system or even have the knowledge to say that plumbing is not optimal? No, I have seen a thousand plumbing schematics. Talked with hundreds of general contractors and plumbers. Specced out thousands of pumps and systems, and made a lot of recommendations of changes. However, I still would be unable to effectively diagram or with a cursory glance at a building plan tell you whether a plan is good or great. [quote=Vapora Dark] A scout -scouting a guide is like saying "I'm an experienced player, and in my experience, this guide is wrong". Testing a guide would require hundreds of games of playtesting. One game is not enough, you can't just try one guide in one game, try a different guide in another, and say the best one is whichever you had a better score with. There are way too many variables in this game. That's why the Scouts are meant to just +scout or -scout based on what they think is optimal for a champion. If they make a mistake, tough luck, shit happens. You can't expect them to play-test LB with magic pen glyphs over 100 games then compare it to LB with AP glyphs over the course of 100 games, and see which they found better. It's not like them -scouting a guide has any negative effect on it. It's just a bonus for the guides which do get featured, guides which are recommended by experienced players. [/quote] Why would it take hundreds of games? If a scout is as knowledgeable as you state that they are it should really only take them 10-15 games with a build to go hmmm, this works or nope it's bad. The diamond players that host our podcasts are able to tell within 5-10 games if an item is worth taking at all or pretty useless simply by taking the item over a span of 5-10 games and seeing how it feels and if it benefits you at all. Otherwise as has been mentioned before, they are simply blanket voting like everyone else, and so as is currently constructed the scouting system holds no value. Just to be clear, I am in noway trying to discredit or diminsh the skills and knowledge of those who are currently chosen to be a scout. Nor do I have any interest in being a scout. I am simply pointing out the flaws in the system as it is currently designed. Please do not take offense if you are a scout.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][quote=SOAC Bas] Just to be clear, I am in noway trying to discredit or diminsh the skills and knowledge of those who are currently chosen to be a scout. [/quote] Don't worry about hurting people's feelings. I've been of the opinion for years now that scouts should be at least high elo. Unranked, bronze, silver and possibly even gold scouts make no sense and do not play the game well enough to have the power to feature guides on MobaFire. [quote=SOAC Bas]Why would it take hundreds of games? If a scout is as knowledgeable as you state that they are it should really only take them 10-15 games with a build to go hmmm, this works or nope it's bad.[/quote] In an ideal situation the following would occur: + Scouts can only scout one guide for that champion + Scouts can only +scout in order to vote on the best guide for that champion + Thus they would be INVESTED in trying out the guides to find the best one + To scout the guide, they would need to provide a review of the build and guide ala "Comment 2 Scout" + This review would have to be public, and possibly displayed in a guide "Scout Discussion Tab" + Attached to this review would be 5 games MINIMUM played to support their claims from the above review What does this procedure achieve? One, it cuts out the bullshit scouters who scout on biased opinions; no more -scouts on guides that don't even have +scouts, or scouts scouting guides for which they don't have the runes/champion (has happened before!). Two, it cuts out the lazy-ass scouters who scout without providing feedback. Three, readers on MobaFire actually see high elo scouts TRYING OUT the build/guide and is treated to an in-depth review of the guide and read the feedback as to WHY the guide is Featured. Users then can compare the scouted comments on one guide with another. But. This is an ideal world. I realise that the current scouts have stuff going on. HOWEVER. If the above (or something similar) was made a REQUIREMENT to scouting, scouts who simply can not follow up, have to decline their title. Basically, just the introduction of Comment2Scout would already improve the scouting system, as guide authors Editor and below would finally be receiving feedback about their -scout that they don't even know exists.[/quote]

[quote=-NA- Veng Lmfao][s]lol Soac, I'm a scout and I hardly even play league anymore. You earn scout by being dedicated to the community through rep, not through your ELO. Notice there is a big difference in how useful a scout can be. I will never scout a guide, purely because I don't have a vast knowledge of any champion except [[lee sin]] and maybe [[vayne]], and even then I don't feel comfortable as I'm only Silv 1 (not that I play ranked). I could go and +scout a guide for a champ I played in S2 and say 'Yep, that's how I play the champion and that is correct', but in reality, that is the AP Vayne I used at level 7. Why should a Plat player such as Vyn NOT be able to -scout as the +scout is clearly wrong and not deserved. How is the scout system 'just another vote'. If your guide is good and it stands out, it's going to pick up scout points. 3 points will earn you a nice little featured guide spot to sit ontop of all other guides. If you don't have a guide that's worthy of scout points, don't treat it as a transparency system and wonder why you never see it.[/s] lelelelelel I can't read[/quote]