Need some tips to improve as a main support player

[quote=sirell]1) Some players (most notably Tabe) run AD Quints for the autoattack harass on [[annie]]. And [[jinx]] has extremely strong AA harass with Q... 2) It's hardly a redundant situation :/ 3) [[morgana]] is debatable. I have seen her played support and with success. Support [[Elise]] has also been done not uncommonly, along with other 'debatable' choices like [[kennen]] (notably played by Edward in the LCS), [[leblanc]], [[malphite]] and so on. I'd rather you didn't so conveniently write them off to help support your own point. 5) I feel like you just ignored what I wrote. You seem to be good at doing that. 6) It doesn't matter. I can play aggressive whilst my ADC just AFK farms. The point is the same. One of the major skills - zoning - is based on this. The bottom line is exactly as Moon puts it: I can play aggressively - regardless of what everyone else is doing - so long as I do it safely. 7) You are still confusing it. And then you add some random tangent about how people shouldn't be supporting if they can't understand the difference between asking and bugging. Not that it's right, but how is it even relevant?[/quote]

[quote=Jovy]Jinx and Annie is quite possibly the worst botlane you could've chosen to back up your "if you don't get auto'd often" argument against Doran's Shield start. Against Janna I might consider skipping Doran's Shield, though, with maybe something like... I'm not sure. Low range probably? Otherwise it's too good to pass up, at the moment, except in a few cases (like Doran's Ring on AP supports, which is kinda bronze I think (not sure if people actually do that often or not) but I do it anyway).[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites]I think everyone has said what needs to be said. A couple points, [[Annie]] has 625 auto range, [[karma]] has 525. I don't really know how you can say [[karma]] auto's more than [[annie]]. I mean, everyone here has already pointed out [[annie]] auto's quite a bit, a lot of annie players run AD in the forms of runes or masteries or even both. I don't realy feel like beating a dead horse, but you're still wrong. As far as boots; [[boots of Mobility]] are mainly to engage with or to ward quickly. I don't really know why you would only purchase them when ahead. [[Ninja Tabi]] are fantastic against auto attacking champions and AD heavy teams. Is there a reason to build Merc Treads against a team that has let's say a [[yasuo]] mid AD carry, and AD jungle or top? Not really. [[Ninja Tabi]] in itself is really good for bot lane. As far as [[Morgana]] is concerned, she's been played more as a support since the start of season 3 than she has as a mid lane champion. So whether or not you want to consider her a support is pretty irrelevant As far as us agreeing, trust me we don't SOAC. In fact I don't think anyone here agrees with you.[/quote]

[quote=SOAC Bas][quote=Mooninites] I think everyone has said what needs to be said. [/quote] Opinion not fact which seems to be common with you. [quote=Mooninites]A couple points, [[Annie]] has 625 auto range, [[karma]] has 525. I don't really know how you can say [[karma]] auto's more than [[annie]]. I mean, everyone here has already pointed out [[annie]] auto's quite a bit, a lot of annie players run AD in the forms of runes or masteries or even both. I don't realy feel like beating a dead horse, but you're still wrong.[/quote] This is probably personal experience differences. I rarely get auto'd by annie, and when i don't support the guys on the team rarely get auto'd by annie. It could be because no one really wants to get close to her with stun. As for your point about karma it has a lot more to do with the way she pressures in lane. If you know her passive or had played her you would know that it's almost always abiltiy/auto/ability/auto in order to work her passive. [quote=Mooninites]As far as boots; [[boots of Mobility]] are mainly to engage with or to ward quickly. I don't really know why you would only purchase them when ahead. [[Ninja Tabi]] are fantastic against auto attacking champions and AD heavy teams. Is there a reason to build Merc Treads against a team that has let's say a [[yasuo]] mid AD carry, and AD jungle or top? Not really. [[Ninja Tabi]] in itself is really good for bot lane.[/quote] Reading comprehension is tough for the you and sirrel. I will try it once more. They are the best unless (key word here if you don't know what it means there is a dictionary somewhere) the opposing team features limited CC or an AD team. I don't know why I have to keep retyping the same sentence and yet you and sirrel keep missing the actual statetment. It's almost like you lock up and go into convulsions as soon as I state Merc treads are best. Please try to finish reading a sentence [quote=Mooninites]As far as [[Morgana]] is concerned, she's been played more as a support since the start of season 3 than she has as a mid lane champion. So whether or not you want to consider her a support is pretty irrelevant[/quote] An incorrect opinionated statement based on your own assumptions does not make it true. Just because you think something is true doesn't make it true. Morgana is played a greater percentage of the time in mid lane in both solo queue and competitive team play. Check the stats on lolking and other related sites for yourself. Your opinion therefore is incorrect, but I doubt you will see this and will find some other point to scream about. [quote=Mooninites]As far as us agreeing, trust me we don't SOAC. In fact I don't think anyone here agrees with you. [/quote] Contradicting and conflicting statements aside make you both a humorous debate partner and one who sees more hope in badgering your opponent in a conversation rather than engaging in an intelligent discussion. I could point out that the only time you made a statement that actually came off as your opinion and not your opinion stated as fact was this last comment. I appreciate your candor regardless of your fallacies and lack of comprehension of any statement outside of your own perceptions. You repeatedly misconstrued and reworded my own statements to suit your own version of events and desire to berate and badger myself. You consistently made one statement about myself and then immediately contradicted yourself in your own explanation. I have pointed out the situations that you repeatedly do it, but you refuse to see your own errors. Whether or not you agree with me on any point is not the issue, it's your badgering style of advice and your contradictory statements while berating me that make you less than desirable to continue any sort of engagement.[/quote]

[quote=SOAC Bas][quote=sirell] 1) Some players (most notably Tabe) run AD Quints for the autoattack harass on [[annie]]. And [[jinx]] has extremely strong AA harass with Q...[/quote] Are we talking with the rockets? and at what point in the game do you see Jinx regularly auto harrassing. However, I may have been wrong on Jinx solely because I forgot the rockets do count as aa and not as an ability. As for annie, I still rarely see players autoing in solo queue or competive play at the same rate as I do when they play lulu or sona. However i could be wrong on her. However my point was that Doran's shield is not mandatory. I just picked two champions at random based on interactions I have seen. [quote=sirell]2) It's hardly a redundant situation :/[/quote] Redundancy is duplicating something regardless of need. Since you don't need the sightstone and buying it simply copies something that would cost you less and you rarely would use it how is this not redundant. Redundancy is generally used for emergency situations and I can't see going ruby early in the game or even late being necessary at all unless you want it for emergency situations. I am unsure as to how this isn't redundant. [quote=sirell]3) [[morgana]] is debatable. I have seen her played support and with success. Support [[Elise]] has also been done not uncommonly, along with other 'debatable' choices like [[kennen]] (notably played by Edward in the LCS), [[leblanc]], [[malphite]] and so on. I'd rather you didn't so conveniently write them off to help support your own point.[/quote] I did not write them off. What part of what I wrote did you not understand. I stated they are not commonly picked champs for that role. They are not the top "tier" for that role. i could play viktor support in solo queue. Does that mean we should advise people to do it and build him strictly for damage? Just because someone does something less than 1 percent of the time and it has worked efficiently in the past it does not mean it is common nor that it should be something we shoudl consider giving as advice for someone who is struggling with it. Elise is best suited as a jungler. Not using her there is inefficient. I have seen Yi played as support effectively does that mean I should be giving advice to build like that champ? [quote=sirell]5) I feel like you just ignored what I wrote. You seem to be good at doing that.[/quote] I think you completely missed me explaining the reason why it's a bad idea. I read your comment I was simply giving the facts as to why I made the statement that I believe it's never wise. It's inefficient and the negatives far outweigh the positives. Finally do not take your line of debate from moon. I read it you just stopped reading what I wrote to make your own statement [quote=sirell]6) It doesn't matter. I can play aggressive whilst my ADC just AFK farms. The point is the same. One of the major skills - zoning - is based on this. The bottom line is exactly as Moon puts it: I can play aggressively - regardless of what everyone else is doing - so long as [b]I do it safely[/b].[/quote} How is this different from me saying watch your adc? If he is playing passive play passive. If he is aggressive you can take chances. You are agreeing with me except with a caveat of play passively aggressive or play aggressively passive. If a player is already struggling with the concept of how to work with his adc why would you give advice that is more confusing. Let him learn to play passive with a passive and aggressive with an aggressive before trying to do things that are more complicated with the champs he plays. [quote=sirell]7) You are still confusing it. And then you add some random tangent about how people shouldn't be supporting if they can't understand the difference between asking and bugging. Not that it's right, but how is it even relevant?[/quote] I am not sure you understand semantics so I will refrain from confusing you even further.[/quote]

[quote=SOAC Bas][quote=MissMaw] Jinx and Annie is quite possibly the worst botlane you could've chosen to back up your "if you don't get auto'd often" argument against Doran's Shield start. Against Janna I might consider skipping Doran's Shield, though, with maybe something like... I'm not sure. Low range probably? Otherwise it's too good to pass up, at the moment, except in a few cases (like Doran's Ring on AP supports, which is kinda bronze I think (not sure if people actually do that often or not) but I do it anyway). [/quote] You are probably correct in the worst possible choice to back up my point as people seem to be hooked on that rather than actually explaining when they use the shield and when they don't. I forgot Jinx's Rockets count as an auto attack, and it may just be that I never actually see an annie auto attack at the same rate I do the other ranged supports and thresh. My general rule of thumb is as follows. Ranged Support and I am melee or they outrange me- Doran's Shield first item. If they are melee support and I am ranged then I go Talisman. If They are melee and I am melee then it depends on the adc. If I outrange them and I know that I won't be moving into auto range alot (I rarely move in close if I am playing as Janna or soraka) then I will go Talisman over Doran's.[/quote]

[quote=sirell][quote=SOAC Bas] Are we talking with the rockets? and at what point in the game do you see Jinx regularly auto harrassing. However, I may have been wrong on Jinx solely because I forgot the rockets do count as aa and not as an ability. As for annie, I still rarely see players autoing in solo queue or competive play at the same rate as I do when they play lulu or sona. However i could be wrong on her. However my point was that Doran's shield is not mandatory. I just picked two champions at random based on interactions I have seen. [/quote] So you are asking at what point, does an ADC (also with one of the highest AAs possible with Q) auto-harass? Listen to yourself. And I suppose all those [[annie]]s who run AD Quints (and Marks sometimes) don't auto frequently? Well, I suppose they must have gotten them to last hit, then(!) At this point, we aren't actually talking about D-Shield anymore. The item is a solid all-round pick and suitable for all circumstances. [quote=SOAC Bas]Redundancy is duplicating something regardless of need. Since you don't need the sightstone and buying it simply copies something that would cost you less and you rarely would use it how is this not redundant. Redundancy is generally used for emergency situations and I can't see going ruby early in the game or even late being necessary at all unless you want it for emergency situations. I am unsure as to how this isn't redundant.[/quote] Firstly, you don't ever really get it early game. As Moon and I have both mentioned, you get it after the laning phase, indicative of the mid-game. Next, the definition of redundancy means it's no longer needed or useful. How the fuck is extra hp and another ward in the field for 600g redundant? Sure, there are other options of things to buy with that extra ~600g, like a Null-Mantle or double [[cloth armor]], but completing the [[ruby sightstone]] is both slot effective and cost effective. And who knows? In a ward war, you might just end up using all 5 of the wards. I'm not saying it's a rush item, because it's not, but to NEVER get [[ruby sightstone]] until you get your other 5 items? [quote=SOAC Bas]I did not write them off. What part of what I wrote did you not understand. I stated they are not commonly picked champs for that role. They are not the top "tier" for that role. i could play viktor support in solo queue. Does that mean we should advise people to do it and build him strictly for damage? Just because someone does something less than 1 percent of the time and it has worked efficiently in the past it does not mean it is common nor that it should be something we shoudl consider giving as advice for someone who is struggling with it. Elise is best suited as a jungler. Not using her there is inefficient. I have seen Yi played as support effectively does that mean I should be giving advice to build like that champ?[/quote] Blah blah blah. You said, and I quote: [quote]sorceror's shoes [b][i][u]only[/u][/i][/b] is better on Annie and again that's situational.[/quote] And yet, when all these other picks come up (though granted, uncommon), for some reason, you didn't 'write them off'? Your original claim begs to differ. And [[kennen]] and [[malphite]] do better at top too, yet what the fuck were they doing in the duo lane in a competitive environment? Hum di la hum. And anyway, you miss the original point. Your original claim was: [quote]Always Buy Mercury's Treads unless there is zero cc or zero ap damage. If there is even a little bit of AP damage than Mercury's Treads is better than just about any other boots.[/quote] Of which this is not the case. That some champions can utilise Sorc Shoes and all can utilise [[boots of mobility]] and [[ninja tabi]] equally as well as [[mercury's treads]] means that your original claim is incorrect, or at least misleading. [quote=SOAC Bas]I think you completely missed me explaining the reason why it's a bad idea. I read your comment I was simply giving the facts as to why I made the statement that I believe it's never wise. It's inefficient and the negatives far outweigh the positives. Finally do not take your line of debate from moon. I read it you just stopped reading what I wrote to make your own statement[/quote] Actually, no, I didn't miss anything. However, I did notice it completely ignored what I said about it being a judgement call. If the benefits outweigh the deficit (which really isn't that outlandish an idea), then putting a pink in tri is fine. To say absolutely that it's 'never wise' is just silly and nonsensical. I could easily come up with scenarios where it would be perfectly fine to trade 100g. [quote=SOAC Bas]How is this different from me saying watch your adc? If he is playing passive play passive. If he is aggressive you can take chances. You are agreeing with me except with a caveat of play passively aggressive or play aggressively passive. If a player is already struggling with the concept of how to work with his adc why would you give advice that is more confusing. Let him learn to play passive with a passive and aggressive with an aggressive before trying to do things that are more complicated with the champs he plays.[/quote] OMD, can you even read? I said REGARDLESS of whether you ADC is playing passive/aggressive, you can still play aggressive. Let me outline it for you once again. - ADC is PASSIVELY farming/last-hitting. - At the same time, Support is AGGRESSIVELY trading damage, zoning the enemy. - These are NOT the same. Essentially, what you do doesn't have to be in line with what your ADC does so long as it doesn't endanger your chances of winning. [quote=SOAC Bas] I am not sure you understand semantics so I will refrain from confusing you even further. [/quote] Lol.[/quote]

[quote=Mooninites][quote] This is probably personal experience differences. I rarely get auto'd by annie, and when i don't support the guys on the team rarely get auto'd by annie. It could be because no one really wants to get close to her with stun. As for your point about karma it has a lot more to do with the way she pressures in lane. If you know her passive or had played her you would know that it's almost always abiltiy/auto/ability/auto in order to work her passive. [/quote] Well as far as personal experiences maybe, but then again I wouldn't know what the depths of Bronze 3 are like [quote] Reading comprehension is tough for the you and sirrel. I will try it once more. They are the best unless (key word here if you don't know what it means there is a dictionary somewhere) the opposing team features limited CC or an AD team. I don't know why I have to keep retyping the same sentence and yet you and sirrel keep missing the actual statetment. It's almost like you lock up and go into convulsions as soon as I state Merc treads are best. Please try to finish reading a sentence [/quote] That doesn't change the fact that you stating that they are the universal best is incorrect. I don't understand what is so difficult for you to understand about that [quote] An incorrect opinionated statement based on your own assumptions does not make it true. Just because you think something is true doesn't make it true. Morgana is played a greater percentage of the time in mid lane in both solo queue and competitive team play. Check the stats on lolking and other related sites for yourself. Your opinion therefore is incorrect, but I doubt you will see this and will find some other point to scream about. [/quote] I don't really see how it's an opinionated statement based own assumptions when it is a fact that Morgana has been played more as a support than a mid lane champion in LCS. You can look that up.[/quote]

[quote=SOAC Bas][quote=Mooninites] Insult, Insult, irrelevant statement, ridiculous assumption, insult, insult, no facts, and insult some more. [/quote] I just summarized your entire discussion process and since there is no relevant facts and you seem incapable of having any discussion where someone doesn't agree with you completely. You can't read past your own opinion, and you can't type more than two words without trying to insult someone. I have no desire to continue this on since you haven't mentioned one valid point in your last 4 posts, and every post you have made since your first one follows the quoted statement above.[/quote]

[quote=Pheyniex]i kindly request this thread to be closed.[/quote]