Learning Trundle...

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] 1% AS is not going to do more than the 15% mag pen.[/quote] You said that --.-- And I said 1%AS>0.75%CDR on Trundle. [quote]I used AD quints, full ArP reds, and everything else I used was my standard set up.[/quote] Yes? You still must've made some mistake when jungling because every time I tried (tried 2 times each) AD was better.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I dunno. I just used my masteries and my runes. This is nitpicking either way, the clear times were comparable and either way they both worked withing a hundred HP or two in both directions.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport][quote=Searz] Doesn't help that much in lategame. Trundle's Bite doesn't scale with AS, so using it delays your next attack quite a bit if you're on [[Contaminate]] and have [[Trinity Force]]. It's almost so delayed that you lose damage, but the bonus AD from it makes up for that a little. Also, if any offtank ever is perfect for Atmog, it's Trundle. Too good to pass up. Your ult provides a ton of resistances anyways, so HP>resistances. [/quote] If you're using [[Rabid Bite]] to reset your attack animation, the increase in second-by-second DPS is more then the damage you lose from not attacking a second time - That's optimal damage output. And exactly how much attack speed do you think you're getting? It's not like he's hitting 2.1+ And health is not necessarily better - Becoming a super tank with [[Agony]] actually gives you better survivability. And I always have at least 1 health item in my defenses. [[Phage]] also grants a enough in my opinion. If one of the enemies is being a pain by being especially good at tearing through defenses however; like [[Cho'Gath]], or [[Corki]] then I'll build [[Randuin's Omen]] with [[Banshee's Veil]] - But I really dislike this build because that means I have less CDR then I'd like, and I use out on aura and ms utility from FHeart and FoN. And let's not forget - [[Agony]] steals health too - So super tank > healthy offtank.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]No that's really not true. You want to pick Trundle when the other team has a potential super tank like Singed or Cho Gath, so that you can build as a healthy offtank, and then suddenly become both a super tank and an offtank when you ult them. Not to mention you break their super tank. Trundle's just a good counter pick to tanks as far as junglers go.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]@DuffTime: What does when you pick Trundle have to do with anything? I thought this discussion is about how to play Trundle, having already picked him. You can't be an offtank and super tank at the same time. An offtank is squishier, there's a line between the two. I build defenses, so that any health I do have is EXTREMELY effective after I use [[Agony]]. Health items (except for [[Frozen Mallet]]) typically don't have as much utility as defensive items. Agony increases health too, so focusing more on health isn't viable in my opinion. You already get health from phage, and BV/Omen in my build. That needs to be balanced out with heavier defenses for normal combat when you're not fighting with the enemy tank. The following build gives you over 2.7k HP, 170+ armor, and 150+ magic resist, not including runes or masteries. [[Agony]] would amp this up to 3k and 200+ on defenses, depending on the target's build. [items=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/item-purchase-planner#&item=108-82-101-63-102-80] This operates better in my opinion because the defenses are more important then the health. Suppose someone's picked [[Kog'Maw]] or builds a [[Madred's Bloodrazor]] - Having more magic resist is better. Suppose there's a Vayne; the extra armor to at least negate her AD damage would be more effective then building health to make you easier prey for her [[Silver Bolts]][/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]You can be an Offtank and a super tank when you have 4k HP and you ult singed with 200+ resistances. Your build is good. Another good build is the (You guessed it) meta golems build. Triforce is optional, sometimes Mallet is a better choice on Trundle. When you have atmogg's and trinity, with a green pot, and you ult a big huge tank, on Trundle you're really still doing disgusting amounts of damage. It's preference, do you want more damage, or do you want more tankiness. It also depends why you picked the champion to begin with. In ranked, you're very likely going to Singed and Cho picked before junglers are picked. Those are good champions to square away. Trundle is an excellent counter to those champions. He uses their tankiness against their team, and leaves them temporarily vulnerable. He can also split them away from their team during this time and land a potential kill on the tank.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=JunSupport] If you're using [[Rabid Bite]] to reset your attack animation, the increase in second-by-second DPS is more then the damage you lose from not attacking a second time - That's optimal damage output.[/quote] It's certainly a bonus, but at 2 attacks "lost" (~1.5AS or so) you'll still lose more damage from the delay than you get from the reset. [quote]And exactly how much attack speed do you think you're getting? It's not like he's hitting 2.1+[/quote] LIKE I SAID; Trinity+Contaminate.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=JunSupport] The following build gives you over 2.7k HP, 170+ armor, and 150+ magic resist, not including runes or masteries. [items=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/item-purchase-planner#&item=108-82-101-63-102-80][/quote] A metagolem build is just better imo. [items=http://www.mobafire.com/league-of-legends/item-purchase-planner#&item=108-82-65-36-63-80] A metagolem build would put you at ~3800HP, ~160armor, ~180MR, 33%CrC and ~83 bonus AD. (runes included) A metagolem build has in comparison: +1100HP (this is pretty damn huge) -30armor =same MR +19HP5 (FoN's passive) +3%CrC +45AD (from atma only ofc) -20ArP -15%CDR Soooo, the main question I'm thinking right now is whether the ArP will outdamage the bonus AD and crit. *graphs it* :3 It seems the 45AD from Atma shits on 20ArP. Soo, you basically have a LOT more durability (1100HP>>>>4% less physical damage taken) and more damage, for the loss of some utility. Totally worth it. [quote]I build defenses, so that any health I do have is EXTREMELY effective after I use Agony.[/quote] Yeeaaa... no. You gotta think about diminishing returns too. The more you stack, the less effective each point gets. HP doesn't have diminishing returns, so you don't "lose" any stats by stacking it :P[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]I do agree "Metagolems" is the comfortably superior choice for Trundle.[/quote]