Learning Trundle...

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] I like a 14/13/3 on Trundle.[/quote] Wow, I bet your jungle is real easy with those masteries. Sadly they just don't work as good as other choices.. You kinda need the +EXP to keep up in levels if you're ganking and you kinda need utility mastery. You're sacrificing ~50seconds of buff time for a little easier jungle. That is just not worth it. You're also losing [[Quickness]], which is just soo good on most melee junglers (it even helps your jungle time). Seriously, look at ANY high elo jungler. They ALL get [[Awareness]] and at least one point in [[Utility Mastery]]. There are very good reasons not to skip them. If you want a LOT stronger jungle early on you should try AD quints. They are SO GOOD on Trundle. Stonewall even recommends running AD marks, but that is overkill imo.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]I typically go 1/13/16 I've found [[Swiftness]] significant for early ganks and like maxing [[Utility Mastery]] for maximized red and blue buff durations, but the extra damage-blocking from the defensive tree really smooth out my jungling. Trundle already has good clearing time viable his Q spam and [[contaminate]] sterioids. TriForce tank is typically how I like to build him. Trundle is your typical "Get in, rampage a bit, get out" offtank champion. After wriggles and mercs, I like to get brutalizer, build my tri-force, then I focus completely on two defensive items (usually FoN and Randuin). Finishing my Youmuu's after. If I'm doing particularly well early on, I rush [[Avarice Blade]] and [[Heart of Gold]] for the gp5 and end up finishing Youmuu's early. I really like the proc; and especially like the funny image of a troll wielding a katana. Sometimes I swap FoN and R's Omen for Frozen Heart and BV - The AS-debuff aura is much better for team fights then Randuin's slow if they're stacked on auto-attackers. I'm also especially keen on glacial and omen because of the cooldown reduction I'm getting combined with Youmuu's ghostblade - Being able to spam [[Rabid Bite]] every 3 seconds (instead of 4) is very nice.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Those are also good masteries Jun. And yes Searz, it's the easiest and healthiest clear on any champion outside of maybe Cho Gath if they used the same masteries. You get some of the defense (6 armor and mr) that you lose from not taking armor which is subtle but does help, and the reduced damage from minions and stuff actually makes a really huge difference. Since Trundle does have reduced CC in his ground poop, you can also take dodge yellows, run the Dodge mastery, and buy Tabi as well if opponents are auto attack heavy. HOWEVER, I find myself always outleveling enemy junglers because I neeeever base. I probably base 2-3 times in the entire lane phase, because I know I will be legitimately healing off of the camps with just a vamp scepter. The time spent basing, even if it's just once or twice, while I skip that and keep clearing, always makes up for the EXP mastery and more. Personally I run an ugly combo of runes Searz, I take 6 attack speed reds and 3 ArP reds, and for quints I take ArP as well. The reason is that with the damage bonus from your bite, the AS does help quite a bit in making the most of the damage you get. I never did a whole graph of numbers, just threw together what felt right after a few games of trial and error. I used to have a page with 3 AS yellows and 3 AS blues as well for more aggression but I scrapped it because the trade isn't worth it. Trundle needs his tankiness more than he needs his slight boost in the jungle or what have you, it was an easy choice. :P Youmuu's isn't a bad item on Trundle, but I wouldn't buy it simply because Trinity force is all the damage you need, and the slowing procs are what you want on Trundle. Making the most out of Trundle's toolkit, is when you can pillar your enemy team in half, and slow your targets even after the pillar is gone. I don't pillar after the fight to chase, I pillar mid fight to disrupt. In turn, full tanking (Or sturdy Offtanking) allows him to perform the unique role of aggressive tank that deals very solid damage. That's basically my favorite role to play, so I think Trundle is best built as a super meaty squishy eater. When he gets a hold of a squishy, they die. Also with his ult he's a very above average tank killer as well. With the second build I listed in my guide, for example, it's a traditional "Meta golems" build, but on Trundle he really makes the most out of those items. They syergzie beautifully with his kit, when you think about it. And the stronger your enemy tank is, the more you do with your HP. You're right Jun, FH and Omen are realistically Trundle's best items.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=JunSupport] I typically go 1/13/16 I've found [[Swiftness]] significant for early ganks and like maxing [[Utility Mastery]] for maximized red and blue buff durations, but the extra damage-blocking from the defensive tree really smooth out my jungling.[/quote] I get crazy fast clear times with 1/8/21 and AD quints. AD quints smooths out your jungle plenty enough to go 21 utility. [quote]I'm also especially keen on glacial and omen because of the cooldown reduction I'm getting combined with Youmuu's ghostblade - Being able to spam [[Rabid Bite]] is very good.[/quote] Doesn't help that much in lategame. Trundle's Bite doesn't scale with AS, so using it delays your next attack quite a bit if you're on [[Contaminate]] and have [[Trinity Force]]. It's almost so delayed that you lose damage, but the bonus AD from it makes up for that a little. Also, if any offtank ever is perfect for Atmog, it's Trundle. Too good to pass up. Your ult provides a ton of resistances anyways, so HP>resistances.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]o_O His bite most certainly does scale with AS. The sustained effect combined with a little attack speed is great. Atmogg's is also fantastic on him. Reality is he's a very flexible champ, his kit is really versatile. Edit; I'd either do 14/13/3 or a 1/13/16 I think. Full utility would be okay too but meh. I don't find myself needing my extra summoner. I think the biggest impact that would have would be even further reducing your smite cooldown, to be honest. The 6% reduced CD's could be pretty cool too I suppose. I'm still gonna be running 14/13/3 though, seems pretty firmly the best mastery choice to me right now.[/quote]

[quote=Nighthawk]makes me want to waste IP on Trundle on my main so I have semi proper runes... cause I already know I can't jungle with him without them :c Also: Wit's End on Trundle?[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Wit's end on trundle is a big nono. He's got built in AD and attack speed, make the most of it with Crit, damage, and attack speed, and buy your MR in one big block. Honestly Trundle is super easy to build, just use metagolems and keep in mind Frozen Mallet is better than Triforce in certain matches and you'll be fine.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] And yes Searz, it's the easiest and healthiest clear on any champion outside of maybe Cho Gath if they used the same masteries. I find myself always outleveling enemy junglers because I neeeever base. I probably base 2-3 times in the entire lane phase, because I know I will be legitimately healing off of the camps with just a vamp scepter. The time spent basing, even if it's just once or twice, while I skip that and keep clearing, always makes up for the EXP mastery and more.[/quote] But it's just not worth it. You're giving up more than you're gaining. AD quints will make your jungle plenty easy already and Vamp Scepter works EVEN BETTER with AD quints. [quote]I take 6 attack speed reds and 3 ArP reds[/quote] Attack speed runes are almost wasted on Trundle. He has an auto attack resetter in his Q (with a ~3sec CD) so just getting AD and ArP is a better use of his kit. I can warmly recommend AD quints. (AD quints are better than AD marks) [quote]With the second build I listed in my guide, for example, it's a traditional "Meta golems" build, but on Trundle he really makes the most out of those items. They syergzie beautifully with his kit, when you think about it. And the stronger your enemy tank is, the more you do with your HP.[/quote] Yea, a metagolem build is sooo good on Trundle. [quote]You're right Jun, FH and Omen are realistically Trundle's best items.[/quote] Nooooooo, most certainly not. FH is much worse than other armor items imo. Too many bonuses are wasted (or meh) on Trundle. [quote]Youmuu's isn't a bad item on Trundle, but I wouldn't buy it[/quote] Just like FH Ghostblade is a very meh item on Trundle.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=DuffTime] o_O His bite most certainly does scale with AS. The sustained effect combined with a little attack speed is great.[/quote] His ANIMATION doesn't scale :P In the time the animation takes you could have landed 2-4 hits depending on the amount of attack speed you have. [quote]Atmogg's is also fantastic on him. Reality is he's a very flexible champ, his kit is really versatile.[/quote] Yea, he is flexible, but Atmog is just better than most other choices, so why bother with them? :P [quote]I'd either do 14/13/3 or a 1/13/16 I think. Full utility would be okay too but meh. I don't find myself needing my extra summoner. I think the biggest impact that would have would be even further reducing your smite cooldown, to be honest. The 6% reduced CD's could be pretty cool too I suppose.[/quote] The thing is that you just don't need the defense (which is almost useless outside of the jungle anyways) when using AD quints and you get faster by using 21 utility. I just don't see a reason not to get 21 utility. Fast clear time, less buff reliance, more buff time, CDR and mobility. Too good to pass up.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]No way dog. FH is an epic item on Trundle :) The reduced attack speed is a huge factor, but another profound reason is more pillars and more ults. FH is a great purchase along with a Frozen mallet, when you have maybe a Brand and / or a Vayne on your team, and you really don't need to do damage at all. Just be an annoying disabler. Trundle does that function well too, part of why I like him as a champ. As long as he's tanky and big, you're probably doing it more or less correctly. The AD quints sound like they would help in terms of early jungle speed and a little bit to ganking power early on as well, but because I take 6 AS reds and ArP quints, I would only be able to take two AD quints using this set up to reach my 6 ArP minimum out of runes. Also, since I take improved minion damage in the offensive tree, that extra 4 damage along with the AS is really powerful with the red AS runes. I clear the camps very very quickly, and I'm really not sacrificing as much as you think >:P What I do sacrifice, I gain back in other areas which cater to my play style more. Basically to sum it up, it's a masteries and runes selection that allows for very fast, health happy clear times, at which point I go gank, and return to the jungle - Generally without basing. If you'd like, I can show you in a custom game later on.[/quote]