Ryze Counters

[quote=PsiGuard]Sorry, I didn't read the original post you were responding to. I just kinda jumped in. :S I just see a lot of people who equate Lux and Morgana because their kits seem incredibly similar (snare, shield, AoE farm ability and AoE ult on both), but their roles are completely different. I'm surprised you don't see Morg often. I see her in most games which she isn't banned (usually blind pick, she's often banned in draft). Chu8 plays a pretty mean Lux btw.[/quote]

[quote=BarbJ]In all of our games together Psi, I've never seen a Morgana on either team. And we don't ban her or pick her. So that's like, 50 games? 0/50 isn't very often.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=BarbJ] In all of our games together Psi, I've never seen a Morgana on either team. And we don't ban her or pick her. So that's like, 50 games? 0/50 isn't very often. [/quote] REALLY? ROFL. Usually (at least when I'm banning), I make sure Shen, Shaco and Rammus aren't available to the enemy team. The other team usually takes care of Morgana and Kassadin. The only time I ban Morg is if the other team already banned shen/shaco/rammus (I don't consider her super-banworthy anyway). I actually play Morg on occasion as a counter-pick. I guess you've never seen my Morg then? On-topic: When I see a Morg on the enemy team, I'd pick someone with better carry potential but a weak-ish laning phase OR Ryze. :P[/quote]

[quote=Jpikachu1999][quote=BarbJ] [quote=Jpikachu1999]Lux, Morgana, Talon, Ahri, Cassiopeia[/quote] Ryze is actually used in tournament level play to beat Morgana in the lane phase. Ryze > Morgana. Since Lux does about the same thing as Morgana, she would also have a poor laning phase. Talon is a burst caster, Ryze is a dps caster. Once your silence runs out, Ryze will snare you, and hurt you. Since he's building tanky, you're going to lose out on trades. He also has built in sustain with his ult, so he'll fair better over time than you will. Though the true damage from Ahri does hurt, that's only if you manage to hit him with the return of your Q. I'd say even, rather than counter. You know who people use to counter Cass in lane? It's Galio. Like Galio, Ryze builds lots of MR. She will have a hard time. I'm confused why you listed her at all- even you said it was not a counter, simply skill based, roughly even lane. [/quote] Well I haven't watched too much professional play (sue me if you want), so I wouldn't really know. I kinda agree about Morgana, but I seriously can't imagine Ryze being able to pull of enough damage to make trades work when Morgana has [[Black Shield]] and uses it correctly. Like I said, if Talon can get to Ryze before he get's [[frozen heart]], I think he can probably rip him apart. I said Ahri, mainly because of her mobility. I know I know, Ryze shuts down mobility and nukers by being durable and having a snare, but Ahri can stay out of range and poke with [[Orb of Deception]] and [[Charm]]. I put Cass as a skill matchup, because I keep getting told that Cass is a counter to Ryze, however, I've not seen one that can completely dominate Ryze in my experience. Then again, they probably aren't the best of Cass players, and if you look at all her skills and pokes, then she is a pretty decent counter to Ryze. Even though MR hurts DoTs, she has constant poison and can fire 3 or so [[Twin Fang]]s during the poison duration. Thus, she is actually got a lot of sustained damage, which is similar to Ryze. [quote=PsiGuard] [quote=BarbJ] Since Lux does about the same thing as Morgana, she would also have a poor laning phase. Though the true damage from Ahri does hurt, that's only if you manage to hit him with the return of your Q. I'd say even, rather than counter. You know who people use to counter Cass in lane? It's Galio. Like Galio, Ryze builds lots of MR. She will have a hard time. I'm confused why you listed her at all- even you said it was not a counter, simply skill based, roughly even lane. [/quote] Mostly right, but a couple possible corrections. Lux is a lot closer to Xerath (who is a Ryze counter) than Morg when it comes to nuke potential. Lux and Xerath both have a built-in CC and a long range nuke that they can use from an annoyingly safe distance. Morgana is more like Kennen, who needs to chain up disables and stick close to the target in order to combo. Therefore Lux's nuke outranges Ryze, while Morgana's does not. I'm pretty sure Ryze does better than just going even with Ahri. The point of Ahri's ultimate when used against other casters (besides obvious chase/escape scenarios) is to make her difficult to target. Considering ALL of Ryze's abilities are targeted and he has a snare (which stops her ult from casting), he has an ideal kit for dealing with her. You might be able to win the lane as Ahri, but concerning the matchup I'd say Ryze wins. Cass vs Ryze lane could go either way I suppose, but I think Cass' harass, mobility and DPS give her an edge in that matchup. Ryze does roughly the same thing, but he trades some of his damage for defense and sustain, and his CC is soft, while Cass' ult can stun if cast at the right time (shouldn't be hard, Ryze always faces his target when comboing). Generally Ryze can beat anyone who'll stay within range, but Cass might be able to surpass his DPS in a 1v1. More to the point, [[Noxious Blast]] is simply a stronger and safer harass than Ryze's short range spells, so he should be at a health disadvantage by the time the two trade nukes. @Luther: Nobody stops Morg from farming :P, but when a champion can pretty much destroy her without ever being threatened in a 1v1, I'd call that a counter. Morg's nuke is really strong against squishy champions that she can keep in range, especially ones that rely on a blockable spell. I think Ryze gets way too tanky for Morg to deal with. After her combo, Ryze should be able to clean her up. [/quote] If Ahri can stay out of Ryze's range though, she can keep poking with true damage from [[Orb of Deception]], which a good Ahri should land most of the time. With Ryze vs. Cass, I think it's just a measure of who can play more defensive to counter the others aggressiveness. I know that when I play Ryze, the opponent Cass is usually pretty aggressive, so I just passively farm to get items unless my jungler comes to gank. In that situation, Ryze can pretty much kill Cass after he reaches a certain tankiness, but he needs to be more passive in lane phase. [quote=BarbJ] [quote=PsiGuard]Lux is a lot closer to Xerath (who is a Ryze counter) than Morg [/quote] I was just using what he said, that Lux is the same as Morgana. In that case, where Morgana = Lux, and Ryze > Morgana, Ryze is also > Lux. I don't see a lot of Morgana in my level of play to know enough about her personally, and conversely, I don't see any Lux in high level stream or tournament play. [quote=Luther3000]There are several key differences between Galio and Ryze[/quote] I didn't say they were the same. I said they both build MR. MR stops damage. Therefore, Cass will not counter Ryze. Even if she manages to hit all her spells, she'll be doing far less damage than she should against other mids. I didn't say that Ryze counters Cass like Galio does, but he will fair better than other mids. [/quote] I guess I did say they were the same. They are slightly different, and Psi has probably explained it better than I could, so ... listen to him lol.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=BarbJ] I didn't say they were the same. I said they both build MR. MR stops damage. Therefore, Cass will not counter Ryze. Even if she manages to hit all her spells, she'll be doing far less damage than she should against other mids. I didn't say that Ryze counters Cass like Galio does, but he will fair better than other mids. [/quote] He won't have MR until at least the third or fourth time he goes back. You can zone him from farm, force him back to his tower and harass the shit out of him until then and there's nothing at all he can do. Ryze building MR does not mean he doesn't have early laning counters. Even once he gets MR he has to deal with superior range and pushing.[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]You don't have to trade with Morgana. She relies entirely on one skillshot with a long cooldown that can be blocked by minions to do damage. Ryze should be able to crack her shield and get some damage on her for free, especially with blue buff. Talon doesn't insta-gib people at level one. By the time he has enough damage to start really hurting a squishy, Ryze should have Glacial already. Ryze doesn't get a free win against talon, but he's a very undesirable lane. Talon wants squishy casters to eat, not tanky mages with tons of DPS. Ahri's Q is dodge-able. Charm is not a poke, it's a short range skillshot CC that can be blocked. Ahri has a decent harass, but you're not going to get the opportunity to hit her Q every time and often. If you're good you might be able to get the upper hand very early, but once Ryze has some hp sustain it isn't going to matter. Cassiopeia has in my opinion one of the highest skill caps for any champion in league of legends. In the one game that TSM bested M5 (who only lost 1 game in two full tournaments), TSM had a Cass mid. From then on, M5 banned her every single game. Her aggression is very difficult for lower level players to manage (by lower level, I mean below 1900, not new summoners) and she has a lot of potential that isn't seen much outside of pro tourneys. Ryze is considerably easier to use, which is probably why the matchup looks quite even at amateur level. By the way, Cass can fire about 5 Es after one Q. Even more if she lands several Qs or even a W. Ryze has a fairly low MS that can be exploited. EDIT: Magic resistance will mitigate any form of magical damage, but it's especially useful against burst damage. Having a Negatron Cloak can be the difference between surviving a Veigar nuke or getting blown up immediately. Sometimes surviving a nuke can even net you a kill while your target is on cooldown. Cass doesn't really go on cooldown. It'll just take her an extra second or two to kill you. Cass' offensive potential may be higher against squishier mids, but that doesn't mean she doesn't counter Ryze. Also don't forget that Galio can build a ton of MR early, while Ryze can only afford a couple MR items and has to focus on getting mana as well. Galio is also a freefarmer and can push well, much like Morg, and his shield can heal him off every tick of poison as well.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=PsiGuard] You don't have to trade with Morgana. She relies entirely on one skillshot with a long cooldown that can be blocked by minions to do damage. Ryze should be able to crack her shield and get some damage on her for free, especially with blue buff. [/quote] This is true but bear in mind Morgana can simply E the creep wave without ever having to walk into Ryze's range.[/quote]

[quote=BarbJ]Farming easily doesn't means she counters Ryze- which is what Jpikachu brought up. Morgana does not counter Ryze.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]I never said she did. :P[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=Luther3000] [quote=PsiGuard] You don't have to trade with Morgana. She relies entirely on one skillshot with a long cooldown that can be blocked by minions to do damage. Ryze should be able to crack her shield and get some damage on her for free, especially with blue buff. [/quote] This is true but bear in mind Morgana can simply E the creep wave without ever having to walk into Ryze's range. [/quote] I think you mean W. Minions don't do very much magic damage :P. Keep in mind that Morgana passively pushes, while Ryze does not. You won't be able to deny her all her farm, but if Ryze destroys her at mid range, he could earn a farm advantage by freezing the lane just out of range of his tower.[/quote]