DFG is being removed.

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=FalseoGod][quote] Also, DFG has less counterplay.[/quote] How so? Exactly the same thing is required of both champs after you used the DFG active/Zed ult: sticking power and followup. You may argue that DFG is bonkers because it doesn't limit itself to the champion using it. Zhonya's hourglass prevents mage damage just as much as Zed's death mark trigger (which lategame he often doesn't even need) and of the DFG users. Is Zed being melee the issue? He has 3 shadows he can move out with, whereas [[lissandra]], as an example, is stuck there, hoping her W + Zhonya + Team followup are enough.[/quote] Whether or not [[Zed]] is well-designed and whether or not his ultimate is toxic or not are both up for debate, however it's also ultimately irrelevant to whether DFG actually contributes to this game or not. I don't see why you keep bringing up [[Zed]]'s kit, because it has nothing to do with [[Deathfire Grasp]]'s poor design. Regarding the counterplay of this particular example: [[Zhonya's Hourglass]] pretty much thwarts all of [[Zed]]'s plans in an instant and the timing isn't really all that important. Against DFG, that is much, much harder to do. Also, DFG's debuff lasts 4 seconds, is applied almost instantly without a clear indication. This opposed to both [icon=Zhonya's Hourglass] Hourglass and [[Death Mark]], which last 2½ seconds and 3 seconds respectively. But as said, [[Zed]]'s design isn't the discussion here, it's DFG. [quote=FalseoGod][quote]Champion kits are something entirely different than items. Rengar, Kha'Zix, Zed, and Talon bring next to no utility to a team whereas Lissandra, LeBlanc, and the likes bring plenty. Why should a mage pack the same burst as a character who is tailored to assassinating and also pack CC and other forms of utility?[/quote] Leblanc packs next to 0 utility, lol. Also, the mages are much more susceptible to direct engages, and they aren't nearly as mobile as Zed/Talon/Rengar/Kha nor are they as effective at splitpushing. Not to mention those four, if splitpushing, demand at least two people to stop them or pressure the enemy team to do a really good engage mid (coz 5v4), otherwise they'll take objectives for free. So they're also skipping utility for map pressure. And, apart from Syndra/Veigar/Leblanc, the burst is hardly comparable, not to mention that, once again, you're sending a champion with less bulk stats and, in most cases, less mobility, into a bad position.[/quote] [[Leblanc]] packs 2 snares which also include a slow and comes with an exceptional amount of mobility, which is unmatched by any of the others. However, as stated before, the nature of the kits and roles of specific champions isn't up for debate it, it's whether DFG is a healthy addition to the game or not, and I am saying that it isn't. All I see you do is bring up champions which have something unfair – according to you – about them, and that somehow justifies DFG's existence. That's equivalent to saying that murder is okay because Hitler did something worse. In addition to this, all those champions fulfil completely different roles and aren't even all found in the same lane/position so you can hardly compare them at all. [[Syndra]] doesn't need DFG to pick people off with E and then burst them with ult. The R does an exceptional amount of damage as is and can instantly dispatch of any carry esque champion in the game. [[Veigar]] is too archaic to bring to the conversation, even in his prime he wasn't competitive so comparing him is unfair and, as said, irrelevant. [quote=FalseoGod][quote]I find it hilarious that you think that, just because two entirely different champions are both commonly found in the mid-lane, they fulfil the exact same role, and therefore should have access to the very same tools. Zed and Fizz are both assassins, but they do their tricks in a completely different way. Additionally, Fizz has access to items that directly increase his burst like Lich Bane and a percentual modifier known as Rabadon's Deathcap, Zed doesn't. Additionally, he has access to Zhonya's Hourglass, arguably the strongest item available to AP-based champions.[/quote] Spare me the word distortion, I spoke of giving burst mages another tool to help make sure they can get their job done which is, well, bursting. And Zed doesn't have those tools because he's been balanced around what already exists. This brings us to the "Riot will rebalance these champs" point which, as I've said before, I can't trust until I've seen it, since I doubt they'll give champions like Lissandra more damage. This, in turn, means that people used to a certain playstyle with that champ - a more aggressive one - are obligated to choose something else, even when their build wasn't necessarily the most popular.[/quote] Burst mages have plenty of tools to get their job done, and that's, like the champions you've mentioned, all buried within their kits. The problem is that DFG is just more of the same shit and changes the impact certain champions have on the game. [[Lissandra]] isn't a burst mage and shouldn't be played as such. Same goes for various other ones, including, but not limited to, [[Vladimir]] and [[Mordekaiser]]. Additionally, burst mages are still mages, and therefore still pack a good chunk of utility next to the fact they have burst. And in all fairness, I never brought up the “Riot will compensate” argument because I don't think it is an argument. I think removing DFG as it is right now is a good choice and should be healthy for the game. I don't mind the champions affected getting compensation in some shape or form, but whether that happens or not, that doesn't change the fact that DFG is unhealthy in the sense that it doesn't promote player interaction. [quote=FalseoGod][quote]In the end, your arguments are “Well, X is unfair too, so DFG should remain in this game.” and “It has no impact on competitive play and therefore it is not toxic.” Both arguments are very poor at best and really do not state what good it actually brings. I'm pretty sure that you are just salty over your weird-as-fuck Syndra build with Twin Shadows, Deathfire Grasp, Rylai's Crystal Scepter, and no Rabadon's Deathcap is no longer, well, whatever it is. Instead, bring an actual argument to the table that carefully explains what is actually good about DFG, in terms of design, and what good it brings to the game that is League of Legends.[/quote] Oh, now we're resorting to direct offence, that's nice. I will not apologize for my "weird as fuck Syndra build" it had a context and noone gave me better alternatives when I asked.[/quote] Your previous post suggests that you're just mad about its removal because you happen to be a [[Syndra]] player who frequently builds it. [quote=FalseoGod]Also, I have no need to justify DFG's presence in the game since there has been no justification as why it [b] should not [/b] be, other than "for balancing reasons", which would be ok if all those champions held the item as core. It's like saying we might as well boost every champion's AP because most of them build Rabadon anyway so fuck it. Actually, why build items at all?[/quote] If you want to argue, then yes, you do need to justify it. I've provided a fair amount of reasons why DFG is an unhealthy aspect of this game and why it just no longer has a place in it. DFG does not promote player interaction, which is rather weird considering we are playing a game. The fact that, right now, it doesn't hold a significant spot in the competitive scene doesn't mean that the item has no impact overall. There's nothing healthy about champions who can just 100-0 enemies simply by using DFG and their other spells, whether that ends up breaking the game or not. [quote=FalseoGod]But personally, the item allows me to capitalize on the good picking up of players. If, as playing Syndra, I manage to poke efficiently and hit E-Q, I don't know why they should be allowed to survive with 5 HP when they were out of position/caught in the first place. I do not buy it on pretty much any other champion except Ahri anyway, and I think that if I'm risking my butt to kill someone, it's actually not a bad thing to have a tool that helps me do so since, if I were playing Zed, I could get the fuck out anyway.[/quote] I know the logic behind using the item on [[Syndra]] – and on other champions for that matter – and I'm telling you that you're bad for building it – if that was the case, you misunderstood me. The unhealthy aspect about it is that [[Syndra]] doesn't even really need to hit her skills when going for a carry; she can also stack the [[Dark Sphere]]s somewhere, then press DFG, then press R, and kill someone without fear of retaliation. The biggest difference between the 100-0 mages such as [[Ahri]], [[Lissandra]], [[Syndra]], and the likes can do with DFG, and the 100-0 potential champions such as [[Talon]] and [[Zed]] possess is the fact that mages have a higher degree of utility and pack CC to set up their combos, which makes it even harder to avoid the eventual combo; you cannot use [[Flash]] after you've been hit by a [[Charm]], the [[Scatter the Weak]] stun, or [[Frozen Tomb]] so there's nothing you can do about the follow-up that consists of DFG + powerful spells. [quote=FalseoGod]On a sidenote, yours and other people's ever prepotent "my elo is better than yours" attitude remains unimpressive after 3 years of Mobafire.[/quote] I have not, will not, and shall not ever use that as an argument, because, frankly, it is not and will not ever be a valid argument. If you're trying to say that I'm an arrogant jerk, then sure, go ahead, but I've yet to hear an argument of why [[Deathfire Grasp]] is an aspect of the game that should persist. P.S. If I actually had that attitude, I probably would not bother responding to each and everyone in detail regarding the subject, now would I?[/quote]

[quote=utopus]GMD the reason Zed is being brought up is because leblanc is commonly thought of to be the AP version of zed. With [[deathfire grasp]] being removed, people are complaning about [[zed]] in the scope that [[leblanc]] will no longer have the equivalent burst damage that zed can pack, provided that because of [[leblanc]]'s inherent squishiness, she will be forced to [[distortion]] towards a target. Riot will have effectively taken leblanc out of the game. If you are looking for a champion with Burst, there will be no reason to pick leblanc over zed, as [[leblanc]] needed the extra damage from [[deathfire grasp]] to stay equal with the burst damage that zed can put out through [[death mark]]. If you are looking for a champion with catch potential, [[ahri]] will excel just as well - if not better than leblanc due to the fact that [[charm]] has a longer range, faster projectile speed, a wider hit box, and instantly CCs her opponent whereas leblanc's [[ethereal chains]] are significantly more difficult to hit in comparison.[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=utopus]GMD the reason Zed is being brought up is because leblanc is commonly thought of to be the AP version of zed. With [[deathfire grasp]] being removed, people are complaning about [[zed]] in the scope that [[leblanc]] will no longer have the equivalent burst damage that zed can pack, provided that because of [[leblanc]]'s inherent squishiness, she will be forced to [[distortion]] towards a target.[/quote] If you'd ask me, [[LeBlanc]] hasn't really been all that great since the silence removal, and I've never been fond of the DFG-rush build. The removal of DFG has very little to do with LB's viability as a whole; it's like the [[Lee Sin]] E-nerf; mostly a late-game nerf, but you don't pick the champ for late-game anyway. I do understand people's frustration, and I will not argue that [[Zed]]'s design is completely flawless, but it's hardly related to whether DFG is healthy for the game or not. [quote=utopus]Riot will have effectively taken leblanc out of the game. If you are looking for a champion with Burst, there will be no reason to pick leblanc over zed, as [[leblanc]] needed the extra damage from [[deathfire grasp]] to stay equal with the burst damage that zed can put out through [[death mark]]. If you are looking for a champion with catch potential, [[ahri]] will excel just as well - if not better than leblanc due to the fact that [[charm]] has a longer range, faster projectile speed, a wider hit box, and instantly CCs her opponent whereas leblanc's [[ethereal chains]] are significantly more difficult to hit in comparison.[/quote] There's still a reason to pick LB over [[Zed]]. One of the reasons would be that you rather focus on early-mid-game, which is when she really excels. However, LB fell out of favour when her silence was removed. [[LeBlanc]] still has that early dominance that's pretty much only rivalled by [[Karma]]. [[Ahri]] is the superior champion as a whole due to the nature of her kit, but still, she doesn't have that lane dominance that [[LeBlanc]] has. The comparison with [[Zed]] is kind of odd as well as the champions fulfil different roles. Honestly, [[Zed]] has gotten, once more, fairly “unfair” in nowadays meta game but that's no argument that condones [[Deathfire Grasp]]'s presence.[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark][quote=utopus]GMD the reason Zed is being brought up is because leblanc is commonly thought of to be the AP version of zed. With [[deathfire grasp]] being removed, people are complaning about [[zed]] in the scope that [[leblanc]] will no longer have the equivalent burst damage that zed can pack, provided that because of [[leblanc]]'s inherent squishiness, she will be forced to [[distortion]] towards a target. Riot will have effectively taken leblanc out of the game. If you are looking for a champion with Burst, there will be no reason to pick leblanc over zed, as [[leblanc]] needed the extra damage from [[deathfire grasp]] to stay equal with the burst damage that zed can put out through [[death mark]]. If you are looking for a champion with catch potential, [[ahri]] will excel just as well - if not better than leblanc due to the fact that [[charm]] has a longer range, faster projectile speed, a wider hit box, and instantly CCs her opponent whereas leblanc's [[ethereal chains]] are significantly more difficult to hit in comparison.[/quote] But the most common LeBlanc build doesn't even use DFG lol, it's barely a nerf to her. She's still the "AP Zed". LeBlanc shouldn't have as much burst as Zed because, however good his escapes may be, he's melee. He needs to get right up in someone's face to burst them, and he needs to stay longer than LeBlanc does to do it. LeBlanc can W forwards, burst someone's face off in half a second then W back to safety. Why should that combo (which has like a 20 second cooldown with 25% CDR) have just as much damage as Zed's riskier, longer cooldown burst?[/quote]

[quote=GrandmasterD][quote=Vapora Dark][quote=utopus]GMD the reason Zed is being brought up is because leblanc is commonly thought of to be the AP version of zed. With [[deathfire grasp]] being removed, people are complaning about [[zed]] in the scope that [[leblanc]] will no longer have the equivalent burst damage that zed can pack, provided that because of [[leblanc]]'s inherent squishiness, she will be forced to [[distortion]] towards a target. Riot will have effectively taken leblanc out of the game. If you are looking for a champion with Burst, there will be no reason to pick leblanc over zed, as [[leblanc]] needed the extra damage from [[deathfire grasp]] to stay equal with the burst damage that zed can put out through [[death mark]]. If you are looking for a champion with catch potential, [[ahri]] will excel just as well - if not better than leblanc due to the fact that [[charm]] has a longer range, faster projectile speed, a wider hit box, and instantly CCs her opponent whereas leblanc's [[ethereal chains]] are significantly more difficult to hit in comparison.[/quote] But the most common LeBlanc build doesn't even use DFG lol, it's barely a nerf to her. She's still the "AP Zed". LeBlanc shouldn't have as much burst as Zed because, however good his escapes may be, he's melee. He needs to get right up in someone's face to burst them, and he needs to stay longer than LeBlanc does to do it. LeBlanc can W forwards, burst someone's face off in half a second then W back to safety. Why should that combo (which has like a 20 second cooldown with 25% CDR) have just as much damage as Zed's riskier, longer cooldown burst?[/quote] Also, [[LeBlanc]] has insane pressure during the early levels and [[Zed]] doesn't even get close to that.[/quote]

[quote=TwillyFSniper]Yay. No more nags about how I don't build that on my Veigar. Because I hate it. Active based items are frustrating.[/quote]

[quote=Joxuu]Good riddance.[/quote]

[quote=Jovy]Finally a sensible comment![/quote]

[quote=Khazem]you guys don't understand... my AP trist...[/quote]

[quote=Vapora Dark]oh...[/quote]