Serpe's Jungling Corner!

[quote=Nighthawk][quote=DuffTime] Actually I think he is. This is more because Noc in my opinion is just a decent tier 2, and I think Shaco is a super strong tier 2 almost tier 1 at the moment. This rework and his very minor buffs have left him on the strong side. Never thought I'd see the day when Shaco is a terror. Cho is even better at jungling than he is at solo lane, I'm convinced. Shyv is perhaps one of the best jungles. [/quote] Naw, Noc is high T1, always has been, probably always will be. Shaco is certainly a terror, but he falls off superbly lategame and i'm pretty sure he needs blue buff to do his job effectively. Whereas Noc doesn't need shit. Shaco does more damage early game, but less reliably. Depends on teamcomp on which one I would choose. If you already have a strong initiation like Ashe, then yeah maybe Shaco is better. I think you're right, Cho is super strong and I would probs take him jungle > solo top atm. Shyv is def one of the best junglers and the only thing I say is her ganks are holding her back a bit. Perhaps with MS quints + red buff though? IDK.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Nighthawk] Naw, Noc is high T1, always has been, probably always will be. Shaco is certainly a terror, but he falls off superbly lategame and i'm pretty sure he needs blue buff to do his job effectively. Whereas Noc doesn't need shit. Shaco does more damage early game, but less reliably. Depends on teamcomp on which one I would choose. If you already have a strong initiation like Ashe, then yeah maybe Shaco is better. I think you're right, Cho is super strong and I would probs take him jungle > solo top atm. Shyv is def one of the best junglers and the only thing I say is her ganks are holding her back a bit. Perhaps with MS quints + red buff though? IDK. [/quote] If Noc is T1, Shaco is like, Godmode. Noc doesn't scale much better than Shaco, (He does a little) He literally does about half of what Shaco can do in lane phase, and only gets like 20-35% stronger than Shaco end game. Noc is good, I won't dodge queue if someone picks him, but he's over rated in a big way. Shaco's current state generally just means there is no late game. IF you can manage to make it through early, you have a shot. It's tough though. Ye Cho jungle is just ridic. And ye, Shyv wants move speed, run her just like Udyr except with different reds.[/quote]

[quote=Khazem]Shaco actually scales very well into late game lol He can split push like no other, he becomes impossible to 1v1, he becomes impossible to kill, he can jump onto anyone he wants in a fight,... he doesn't fall off late game at all, he only gets stronger[/quote]

[quote=Zeprido][quote=Khazem] [quote=Zeprido] Rammus is currently FotM again, strong ganks, good first clear, slows down later, if ganks are unsuccessful he has a hard time transitioning, very prone to counter jungling. Shaco has a strong early game, slow clear time and strong ganks. Both go no higher than T2 imo with Rammus MAYBE being low T1. [/quote] Both Rammus and Shaco ganks are near unavoidable if done right (Rammus can literally roll past wards with a Shurelya's and catch people as they try to retreat, Shaco can avoid wards alltogether and has very high damage) so they never have to worry about unseccessful ganks, something that is very rewarding in the new jungle. Rammus cleartimes are still fast later on if you get Wriggle's and I disagree with him being prone to counter jungling as he's a pretty strong duelist. True, Shaco's cleartimes are not the best but he makes up for that in everything else, he even scales very well into lategame. There's a reason both of these junglers are always banned or picked in high level play, and it's not because they're only tier 2 junglers [/quote] Shaco has no late game (provides little to the team other than cleanup and split pushing, and both are countered easily). Rammus can at least transition to tank. Wriggles hinders build on Rammus (unless going Atlanta style tanky DPS Rammus). I strongly agree with Duff regarding Nocturne, though for Shyvana, lack of CC hurts her a lot (needs red to gank), she's a much better duelist.[/quote]

[quote=Khazem][quote=Zeprido] Shaco has no late game (provides little to the team other than cleanup).[/quote] Check my last post. You do need to build and play him right or he does indeed become useless lategame. Watch Saintvicious play him and you'll know what I'm talking about.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Not even SV makes up for Shaco's inherent failure of a late game kit. However, due to the new layout, his early game is enough to merit picking Shaco, and he's strong. However, Shyvanna with red is a gank machine. Her e becomes a slowing skillshot, her dragon jump is suuuper dangerous.[/quote]

[quote=Zeprido][quote=DuffTime] Not even SV makes up for Shaco's inherent failure of a late game kit. However, Shyvanna with red is a gank machine. Her e becomes a slowing skillshot, her dragon jump is suuuper dangerous. [/quote] Haha, wasn't aware that her E proc'd red. [quote=Khazem] [quote=Zeprido] Shaco has no late game (provides little to the team other than cleanup).[/quote] Check my last post. You do need to build and play him right or he does indeed become useless lategame. Watch Saintvicious play him and you'll know what I'm talking about. [/quote] It's not Shaco jungle that's OP, SaintVicious jungle is just OP.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime][quote=Zeprido] Rammus in T1. [/quote] Oh buddy he belongs there at any and all elo's imho. He's a low tier 1 or the highest tier 2 ever. [quote=Zeprido] Haha, wasn't aware that her E proc'd red. [/quote] Not in dragon form. Only single target spells proc red.[/quote]

[quote=Zeprido][quote=DuffTime] He's a low tier 1 or the highest tier 2 ever. [/quote] I agree with this. Needs successful ganks though.[/quote]

[quote=ZioSerpe]I hope you don't mind if I don't quote everything this time, is a just a huge work, I'll just answer question with titles so you can browse easily. [[Shaco]] In high elo play with the current Korean theorycrafting on him he's as disruptive as it gets. With the current tanky build his damage stands amazing, plus being an excelent roamer he gets pretty much everywhere fast while having good ganks (wich is what shyvana lacks) and his counter jungling is amazing. He doesn't have problems with being counterjungled either because despite of his lvl his ability to kill buffs fast is damn good. [[Warwick]] I personally theorycraft him myself, althou he doesn't get much love in competitive because well known jungler prefer other kind of picks to teamcomp better. It's worth noticing tho that his lvl 6 ganks combinerd with a burst ally are a sure kill, and he's the only one who can grant that, flash + ult and the enemy is in serious trouble, he even beats maokai in this deparment as an enemy can flash away during [[twisted advance]]+[[arcane smash]] combo while [[infinite duress]] doesn't give time to react. It's also worth noticing That lategame he can get invincible with very cheap items, making him a great jungler (only udyr can make the lesser amount of gold of a jungler shine that great) He's by far the best tank in the jungle right now when build correctly. [[Volibear]] He makes an excelent job as a jungler and scales well into lategame. His ganks re excelent due the absurd amount of damage he can pull. Also unlike other junglers he can build Tier one items since he needs less items to be effective. The fact you can go straight for warmogs while it would be a suicide for another jungler (unless thay're snowballing hard) Gives him quite an edge in power over most junglers. [[Shyvana]] Her fast clear times combined with an excelent roaming ability, makes her even stronger with the new jungle to be honest, She can reach lvl 6 pretty fast and clear enemy small camps in a blink of an eye. Once again counter jungling, outside of buff stealing, doesn't penalize enemy junler that much, while farming the enemy jungle at a fast pace is good for junglers that prefer levels over ganking. Long Story Short, she doesn't have great ganks but can, and should, outlevel the enemy jungler to make up for it. [[Nasus]] & [[Cho'gath]] I still disagree on them being at a good pace in the jungle as they would be in solo top. Last cho gath I run into as maokai gave me the impression I was just outclassing him, and he didn't seem a that bad of a jungler either, Anyway I'll try him and let you know in next Tier update. Same goes for nasus (I know his ganks are a bitch thanks to [[wither]]); I'll give him some jungle love and then get back at you. [[Irelia]] I might have her too low as T5, her clearing times ain't good, but her ganks put up just SO MUCH DAMAGE on early ganks (we're talking Master Yi damage here), but well, between slow clearing and actual amazing power in solo top she seemd more like T5, will give her some jungle love aswell. [[Olaf]] Problem with him is that in the old jungle you had to max [[undertrow]] 1st for better clearing times and better gank utility. With the new jungle it really seems like you can sacrifice some jungling speed for pure damage as he doesn't get low on health anymore, idk I should test it more and let you know.[/quote]