Out of curiosity, did people start considering level 3 the mark for clear times? Because you have well over 750 health by level 4, and that's what used to be used for clear times. Not that jungle viability has much to do with how fast your first clear is.
The reason Tiger jungle sucks is because tiger stance requires expensive AD items, as well as lifesteal and tank stats, and late game, he turns into a zero-threat, unless you're really ****ing fed. Like 15 kills by 30 minutes fed. If you don't get that, his jungle clear speed falls off pretty quick, his damage falls off pretty quick, and you have to pick between buying tank stats and damage. Phoenix jungle clear speed doesn't fall off, it doesn't require any items for damage, and the damage items that do help it also provide tank stats or mobility (eg wit's or shiv/trinity). Aside from the one or two damage/tank items you get on Phoenix, you can focus entirely on buying tank stats and utility, and you'll still remain a threat. In team fights, Phoenix will do more damage than tiger, given the AoE, and you'll be tankier, allowing you to stick in the middle of the fight for longer. Tiger jungle, even fed, is very easily kited by ranged champions, and with the current items and pen calculations, will be out-dps'd late game by most other bruisers. If you want to play Tiger, go counter-pick a Lee in top lane.
The reason Tiger jungle sucks is because tiger stance requires expensive AD items, as well as lifesteal and tank stats, and late game, he turns into a zero-threat, unless you're really ****ing fed. Like 15 kills by 30 minutes fed. If you don't get that, his jungle clear speed falls off pretty quick, his damage falls off pretty quick, and you have to pick between buying tank stats and damage. Phoenix jungle clear speed doesn't fall off, it doesn't require any items for damage, and the damage items that do help it also provide tank stats or mobility (eg wit's or shiv/trinity). Aside from the one or two damage/tank items you get on Phoenix, you can focus entirely on buying tank stats and utility, and you'll still remain a threat. In team fights, Phoenix will do more damage than tiger, given the AoE, and you'll be tankier, allowing you to stick in the middle of the fight for longer. Tiger jungle, even fed, is very easily kited by ranged champions, and with the current items and pen calculations, will be out-dps'd late game by most other bruisers. If you want to play Tiger, go counter-pick a Lee in top lane.
Holy Toledo, Batman, It's Cho'Gath!
Did you ever consider that running Tiger Udyr was for the early game because you'll be building durability late? Late game Udyr is primarily a stun bot...Not some sort of DPS monstrosity. That's what your Carry roles do.
But that's how I look at Udyr, if I wanted to be a damage dealer late I would go Lee Sin. But I'm focused on being the front line of my team as Jungle Udyr. So I itemize accordingly.
The argument was made that "tiger udyr can't gank at level 3 after red because he won't have the HP for it" as well as some sort of opinion that his clear times aren't adequate compared to Phoenix.. I simply was attacking and countering those inaccurate statements.
That was what this whole discussion was about. I was merely stating that Tiger Udyr is actually good, if people actually know what they're doing.
But that's how I look at Udyr, if I wanted to be a damage dealer late I would go Lee Sin. But I'm focused on being the front line of my team as Jungle Udyr. So I itemize accordingly.
The argument was made that "tiger udyr can't gank at level 3 after red because he won't have the HP for it" as well as some sort of opinion that his clear times aren't adequate compared to Phoenix.. I simply was attacking and countering those inaccurate statements.
That was what this whole discussion was about. I was merely stating that Tiger Udyr is actually good, if people actually know what they're doing.
@Vort ofc not that would be sensible
@Jeffy Nasus clears in pretty much the same amount of time (~3:30)
with 9-21-0 masteries/AD quints and Marks, armor marks, and MR/level glyphs
was down about 30 HP when I got done (Soul Eater OP)...so, also, perfectly safe to gank.
could also easily gank at level 2 (wasn't even down 20 after wolves/blue) because don't really need red to gank with Nasus anyways. :P
@Jeffy Nasus clears in pretty much the same amount of time (~3:30)
with 9-21-0 masteries/AD quints and Marks, armor marks, and MR/level glyphs
was down about 30 HP when I got done (Soul Eater OP)...so, also, perfectly safe to gank.
could also easily gank at level 2 (wasn't even down 20 after wolves/blue) because don't really need red to gank with Nasus anyways. :P
JEFFY40HANDS wrote:
Did you ever consider that running Tiger Udyr was for the early game because you'll be building durability late? Late game Udyr is primarily a stun bot...Not some sort of DPS monstrosity. That's what your Carry roles do.
But that's how I look at Udyr, if I wanted to be a damage dealer late I would go Lee Sin. But I'm focused on being the front line of my team as Jungle Udyr. So I itemize accordingly.
The argument was made that "tiger udyr can't gank at level 3 after red because he won't have the HP for it" as well as some sort of opinion that his clear times aren't adequate compared to Phoenix.. I simply was attacking and countering those inaccurate statements.
That was what this whole discussion was about. I was merely stating that Tiger Udyr is actually good, if people actually know what they're doing.
There isn't much you've brought up that I haven't considered. Of course Tiger is primarily early game. But even in the early game, his damage is only higher than phoenix damage, if you can't get the third hit proc off on phoenix. Literally the only strength tiger has over phoenix in jungle is it can apply red buff stacks more quickly in ganks. That's it. And if you're playing Udyr with the primary goal of ganking lanes on the first clear of your jungle... brain may need checking. Also, a side note, phoenix udyr late game is a threat, not just a stun bot. In being a threat, he pulls focus away from the carries. He's a stun bot on top of this. Yes, he can do both. Tiger? Not so much, unless you're really fed.
Also, Lee jungle, if you're fed, can either be peal, and low dps for your carries late game, or an Assassin. If you're not fed (as in average farm and a couple kills -- or worse), all you can do late is peal and front-line for your carries. Being a damage dealer late game as Lee is a luxury, when fed. He's not a damage dealing jungler late by default.
The issue with tiger jungle at level 3 is you'll either have health and level 1 Q, W, and E, but do no damage on the gank, cause rank 1 Q, you'll do damage, but have no bear stance, or you'll do damage and have a stun, but have no health, in which case, you'll just die. If you get a point in Q, W, and E, and you don't successfully land the level 3 gank, you'll be really behind, as your jungle clear to 4 will be incredibly slow. It's not impossible to do, it just blows.
Tiger Udyr jungle is only good against players who blow. And Phoenix would still be better, most of the time, against those same players.
Holy Toledo, Batman, It's Cho'Gath!
Maow
<Member>
<Member>
I'm fairly new to league but I am loving most of it so far, most.That was me playing Sona, notice this was awhile ago when I didn't have much knowledge of builds, but thinking back I remember it was me and my friend playing as Vayne down bot lane, but our team was going crummy so I switched from support to full AP to give the team some power.
That was my friends stats end game. Was still in utter shock that we lost. Our team, besides us had 40 deaths between them sadly.
That was me playing Sona, notice this was awhile ago when I didn't have much knowledge of builds, but thinking back I remember it was me and my friend playing as Vayne down bot lane, but our team was going crummy so I switched from support to full AP to give the team some power.That was my friends stats end game. Was still in utter shock that we lost. Our team, besides us had 40 deaths between them sadly.
If someone needs a player to have fun with then add me on NA Server!
Also, I am 'sigless'. *sigh*
Also, I am 'sigless'. *sigh*
I hate when I get someone who played bad on a game on my team as an opponent afterwards and they go all "see? I'm gud ;)"
Dood, you played TF and your first item was Sheen. Enemy yi was fed as ****. In our game, I was Nasus and you were Vladimir, congrats on killing me and winning the game with your legendary lulu pwning our jungle trynda and our kog (whose first ap item was a WOTA and who couldn't hit a single R)
Before you go "lol u suck", both games I had the least deaths, and I'm talking 5+ deaths difference. What did you do? Catch the team's snowballtrain on one and feed like mad on the other. Gj.
Dood, you played TF and your first item was
Sheen. Enemy yi was fed as ****. In our game, I was Nasus and you were Vladimir, congrats on killing me and winning the game with your legendary lulu pwning our jungle trynda and our kog (whose first ap item was a WOTA and who couldn't hit a single R)Before you go "lol u suck", both games I had the least deaths, and I'm talking 5+ deaths difference. What did you do? Catch the team's snowballtrain on one and feed like mad on the other. Gj.
Meh, people arguing about the viability of champs in the new jungle... NOW WHERE HAVE I SEEN THAT BEFORE.
For some reason i feel like the updates made this game less fun than it was..
also..
QQ Y U NERF SHURELLIAS OMG NOW I HAVE TO EFFIN WASTE 2K GOLD FOR A FREAKING ACTIVE ._.
For some reason i feel like the updates made this game less fun than it was..
also..
QQ Y U NERF SHURELLIAS OMG NOW I HAVE TO EFFIN WASTE 2K GOLD FOR A FREAKING ACTIVE ._.
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@Jeffy
lol?
I mean, f-ing Nasus clears faster than Tiger jungle and can still gank at 2 easily :P
so...not sure why I'm supposed to feel bad about playing Phoenix jungle and actually being a productive member of my team.
If I could get my "print screen" to function properly you'd stop being wrong and simply start being quiet. (while still being wrong)
So because I can't take screen shots of my LoLreplay (for whatever reason) I will simply tell you
I started Machete+5 HP pots
Point in tiger stance
cleared in roughly 3:33
still had 1 HP pot left and I was ~600HP of 750. (which is HP I can gank with safely)
I was running AD reds/armor yellows/MR blues/attack speed quints.
Now I know you guys thought you were right, but you weren't.
Oh and 11/18/1 were my masteries.
Sure it was a bot game, the point being I had no leash still cleared rather quick/had plenty of HP. Both things you both thought Tiger Udyr couldn't do.
Safe to say with a leash I could clear Blue/Wolves/Wraiths/Red maybe ~10-15 seconds faster.