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jhoijhoi's review & discussion service

Creator: jhoijhoi June 29, 2011 5:44pm
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@Summoner
You've clearly never read my guide.
I have clairvoyance-flash just like you do.
And while it is predominantly AP, I get AP items that give me survivability.


The problem with your build (and any ap build) is that it's extremely expensive - Rabadons and Rod of Ages cost more gold than I earn in my average game, that's not including the rest of your items and wards + any oracles you buy.

And when guides for Soraka emphasise not farming but demand so much gold for items, there's obviously a flaw. It's either the guide writer does farm with Soraka, or doesn't support with wards / oracles, or does both.

And that's my gripe when people PM me linking other builds with "Well, why don't you have AP? You need to heal." or "Why do you take flash? You need heal."
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Everyone says that...

but somehow I'm still getting the items just fine, warding, and only farming when the game allows for it...


Note my low creep score.

EDIT: The sorcerer's shoes were for teh lolz...we were raping.
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Well, 37/5 creep score with 4/9/33 is kind of obvious why you have 10k gold.

But if you can build "for teh lolz" then you can kind of see why I'm saying something is wrong if you are building like that..
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Items are irrelevant, what matters is that I supported my team (hence 33 assists).

That's something a lot of people don't think about, you don't have to build support to be support.
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(i should totally stop throwing this thread off topic)

Well items kind of are relevant.. I mean, I don't know the full statistics (like time, total kills per team etc) but people always tell me you heal more with AP items, but when I look at your game stats then look at mine (in a 33-35 minute game or something? we were kind of rolling) (this is another inhouse):



(a lot of my gold came from kill streak endings + us controlling baron and dragon, but before we turned the game around I only had philo, boots 1 and almost hog)

We had this game lost (the score was like 1-15 at one point with all outers and top inner and mid destroyed) but we came back because they just couldn't kill me while I was throwing heals (with 0 ap) out and out. Even though the rest of my team was underleveled and underfarmed I provided auras to make up for it - Aegis helped them survive, Shurelya's meant we moved faster than them and abused that fact and I just kept control of the map. If I didn't have that Aegis, we probably would have lost because at times people only lived with like 20 HP after all their burst at that point.

We ended the game 30-16.

I'm not saying you can't get good results with AP soraka, but I mean, in a even game, the cost is very high and it's a risky investment. You can only really build it sucessfully if your team is already winning. Did your team do well because you buffed them as a support or were you a heal bot - they could have won with any champion who could heal.

A support should define a team - without support items (for soraka) you're just a heal bot. (I know it sounds bad saying this) With that build, people should just watch for your animations then just burst one person down - you don't provide anything else out of your heals (and shurelya's but for burst/dps/resist it offers nothing) so they can just ignore you after your heal, and eventually reach you and take out your team.

The reason Soraka is very strong in pub / <1300 elo games is because no one focuses in those games, so you can easily manage your team, even without support items. Chances are their damage is spread out so you just wish and suddenly they are screwed over.

But in "serious" games, people will just make you burn a heal with their AP carry, then they will completely burst down 1 - 2 people with EVERYTHING, because they know they have a window where you either use your ult to heal one person and have it down rest of the fight or you don't bother healing cause your W is down and you need to save your ult. In situations like that, it doesn't matter how much AP you have, they will die. This is why AP soraka isn't popular, despite the fact the items cost so much on her. Even if the items were cheaper, stronger heals mean nothing out of cooldowns. You need to support your team just by being there. That's where Aegis + being tanky comes in, because it allows you to be offensive too.

This is me ranting, but I don't know, I just don't know how to explain to people that AP Soraka isn't a good idea, because no one seems to really understand.
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Soraka is one of my main ranked champs.
My worst game with her was one where they made me tank, and I mean full-out tank.

EDIT: The worst thing is I offered to play Taric, but they specifically asked for Soraka.
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@Summoner:
You know awhile back no one ever really built Morde AP, now AP/Tank Morde is standard.
No one used to Jungle Fiddle or Yi...Do you see what I'm getting at?

No one did anything out of the ordinary or different, some people were inexperienced and didn't know what they were doing. All this ********* about this> this is silly.

CLEARLY both ways work, CLEARLY some people enjoy doing something different. Me for example I don't build manamune on Corki but some of the pros do. The pros also build CDR GP5 Items on Supports but I've seen Pure AP Sona's in streams completely nuke people while supporting their team.

There is a little something called variety, no one ever plays AP Tristana (At least not as often as AD) but her early game advantage is staggering because of her AP ratios. With so much variety in a game who really cares that one person prefers AP support to CDR/Aura Support style? It's abnoxious and immature to debate over something so futile as personal preference of how to play in a GAME. Let it go your point was made but that won't stop me from just stacking the **** out of AP items on supports. ((I like nuking people even when I support)
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jhoijhoi wrote:
:/ I believe the Abilities Section is where you learn the most about the champion.


Ah, but you've just pointed out that I have all the information that would be in an abilities section elsewhere in my guide, so this is another organization issue. Since Alistar is a support (well, to me he is), I think that information fits better in sections about strategy/laning/team fights. It's more important to know how to benefit your team than to "know how to use Alistar." I'm not really saying what I mean in the most understandable way, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say. Supportive Ali > "skillful" Ali. I'd rather have an Alistar that does what his team needs than one who "knows how to use his abilities" better.

Quoted:
lol, the organisation of your guide was one of my main issues. Basically look at it from someone else's point of view. Get a few more other people to have a look at it. I'd recommend making a dummy guide (one that you never publish) and looking at both organisations side by side on your monitor.


Not a bad idea, but I don't think I'll have time for it at the moment. I hope you realize that your preference and mine are really 2 OPTIONS. I get why you want me to change it, but this decision is a bit older than the internet. You've probably written plenty of Compare-contrast essays (judging by your written eloquence).
There are two main options for writing such an essay:
1. Write everything about the first subject, then everything about the second. This option gives a better picture of the whole of each subject.
2. Compare the two subjects back and forth on a variety of topics. This method focuses more on the differences and similarities and less on the subjects as wholes.

I'm trying to say, that my guide isn't just two different builds in the same guide. That is not at all what I hoped to write. It's a comparison between AP and Aura builds, and is supposed to teach you how and when to use these builds. That's why one of my first topics talks about when to use AP and when to use Aura Support. I completely understand why you want me to split up the guide, but as of now, I'm not going to. Sorry I couldn't address one of your main issues with my guide :/. Thanks anyway.

EDIT: You and Searz are the only ones to criticize the organization of my guide so far. However, you pretty much suggest opposite things. While you want me to separate each build, Searz gave me the idea to separate the item categories in the first place, not to mention his template that I used to make the guide.
I'm not just taking Searz' advice because he has a higher Rep or because I like him more or anything. I respect your opinion as much as I do his. My decision is more based on what I prefer that my guide looks like.

Quoted:
Well, you don't need to remove your columns. But if you want to keep them, you're going to have to neaten them up a little. Even my columns for my items are a bit messy, really.

Like I said before, I tried to clean them up, but couldn't get it to work the way I wanted it to. No columns works well enough for me.

Quoted:
Oh really? And what about your Q, W, and E? What? You do all that too? Guess what, Psi ^^ You've written your own Ability Explanation Section in your reply:

Lol, that must have taken you quite a while pick out all the advice in my guide then put it together. I appreciate the effort, but I still prefer letting the tooltips describe the abilities and explaining the strategy in the other sections. Your work won't go completely to waste though. If I ever change my mind and make an abilities section, I'll come back here and look at your post again.

Quoted:

Skill Sequencing



R > Q > W > E

I prioritize Headbutt, then Pulverize, throwing in a couple points in Triumphant Roar to keep it from being useless.


I may add this part. I took your advice and tried to focus my skilling on the cheat sheet a little more. This would probably fit nicely in my skilling explanation (at least for the AP build), so I'll probably add this at some point.

EDIT 4: Done.

Quoted:
It's the only section in which the columns don't conflict with each other! Are you sure you aren't the one who's lopsided o.O?

Quoted:
D: Well how about making it into 3 columns and 1 row?

But then it looks less cool :(. If it's going to go straight across, I might as well get rid of the columns altogether. Besides, didn't you say that my Core Items section looked messy? I had one item per column there, and it didn't work too amazingly.

Quoted:
Leveling Pulverize instead of Headbutt will result in less damage and fewer kills. While it is true that Pulverize can hit more targets than Headbutt, you should not be using those abilities to farm, and team fights won't start until later in the game. You can only use your Pulverize- Headbutt combo on ONE enemy, often resulting in ONE kill at a time. I find it more effective to secure a kill on one lane opponent than to try to kill both of them at once, with only a Pulverize for damage.

Quoted:
This part is what made me think you were trying to get the reader to believe Alistar was an AP carry. Kinda sounds like he's doing all the killing on his own. Small thing though, not a big deal.

Okay, I sort of get where you got the "I iz carry Alistar" impression. Just remember that, like lux, damage is a way to support your team. When you use your abilities in laning phase, you're mainly working off the base values (which weren't nerfed by the way), which are pretty strong. With either build, when my Headbutt is level three or four, you can almost finish off a squishy by yourself. My point with the "do maximum damage" part was for setting up a kill for your lanemate. If you do a lot of damage with your abilities and Headbutt the enemy towards your teammate, it's easier for them to get the kill. I might add something to that effect in my guide; that should clear it up more.

EDIT 5: Done.

Quoted:
I promise you, no one reads the headings. They don't have to because everything should be immediately apparent in the text that follows.

I don't mean to sound rude, but I think that's a little silly. The cheat sheet is where you find my build; the text is where you find my guide. If I took out all the headings, I think people would take notice. If you (theoretical person, not you specifically) want to get the most out of my guide, read the whole bloody thing. Including the headings.
Also, it should be pretty evident which section is which anyway. I usually mention in the description of an item how it benefits your damage and Ability Power, or how it benefits your team.
Again, not angry. More like incredulous.

Quoted:

Apparently it was a known bug and they fixed it (but don't quote me on that, as I don't play Alistar.

If that's the case that's going to change the game for a lot of Alistar players. When I was watching the Season One championships, that combo is pretty much all they would do. It's one of the few options left when facing a very passive opponent. Doesn't affect me too much thankfully, I can usually get away with Pulverize, then Headbutt. Helps your team more too, cause your Headbutt actually MOVES the guy.

EDIT 2: I also thought you were going to upvote my guide once I'd given my response, so either:
A) You never intended to do that and were just going to give a review.
B) You don't like my guide enough for you to upvote it.
C) You didn't appreciate my response enough.
D) You intend to, but have yet to do so.

Here's hoping it's D :/

EDIT 3: Sorry for blabbing so much by the way. I was trying to keep my second response short and simple. Sometimes I get a little carried away when I think of a lot to write :S.
Thanks to The_Nameless_Bard for the sig!
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Quoted:

You know awhile back no one ever really built Morde AP, now AP/Tank Morde is standard.
No one used to Jungle Fiddle or Yi...Do you see what I'm getting at?


Please don't talk if you have no clue what you speak about.

People always played mordekaiser with AP and resistances - just the people who rush force of nature and warmogs outnumber the people who played with AP. Ever since beta, people have jungled yi and fiddlesticks - pendragon would constantly play yi in jungle and still does to this day. In fact, phreak promoted the use of Jungle Fiddlesticks ever since he was designed - and his avatar on forums to this day is Fiddlesticks.

I know this is offtopic, but every post you make has no baring to any conversation and is incorrect.

I'm telling people of a build that will work versus good people. I bet in any of those AP soraka games, they could run AD soraka and get the same scores, if not better, cause they would do damage inbetween their cooldowns and not just be waiting for heal/infuse to come up.

Quoted:
Let it go your point was made but that won't stop me from just stacking the **** out of AP items on supports.


Ok, you want to play like that, it's your preference. I wrote a guide for people to be better at the game. Playing AP soraka doesn't make you a better player because it teaches you all the wrong things about playing support. Sure you may get good results, but that doesn't mean you're a better player cause of it.

****ting on me cause I make a legitimate argument about playstyles and builds because I want to help people get better at the game is just dumb. Really.

I don't know why I bother explaining, really. :(
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holy **** summoner, please leave, there are other people waiting to get their guides reviewed. And all you are doing is derailing the thread by attention whoring.

So, here is the final comment directed at summoner:
1.) You are a ****
2.) You are not welcome here, I believe both Nameless and Jhoi have asked you to leave (as well as Scrax stating to keep your off topic comments about hating the review you got to yourself)
3.) If you really believe people are reading your wall of text anymore, get real. No one here wants to see what you have to say.

IF, you still have issues, Jhoi said you can PM her about it. Take your **** there, you don't have to ruin this for everyone else.
Also, I am available for your PM's as well, because honestly, I dont want you to quote me here, this is the end of the line, if you have an issue with me stopping the derailment of a thread about constructive CRITICISM (Yes, criticism, thats what you are arguing about) Then you can take your issues further by again, PMing Jhoijhoi, a mod (Scrax is your best bet here, he posted in this thread), and myself. Leave everyone else out of it.

Also, for everyone else. It is settled. Don't talk about him. Don't quote him. He will leave.

Scrax already posted in this thread so I'm sure we can have him pay us another visit if we absolutely need it.

Many thanks to wRAthoFVuLK for my epic sig

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