AD caster item incoming next patch!

[quote=Luther3000]He was playing Urgot in fairness, I don't think I've ever seen anyone build Urgot with a traditional full AD build.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]That doesn't really matter. It still disproves the argument.[/quote]

[quote=wRAthoFVuLK]coming from me as a top laner/mid hell yea no more op level 2 ganks coming from a person who also mains shyvana and lee jungle fuck. :c[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=RCIX] [quote=Temzilla] hurrdurrr i am AD castar, and have 0 resistancez. I AM DO BIG DAMAGE RIGHT GUYSE? Atmas was very intentional. [/quote] I'd mathcraft this out for you, but you seem to be missing the fundamental of "it's not the job of an ad caster to tank". And if it is, a dinky 45 armor item will help? Edit: For AD caster, I'm talking about the character (or characters) who deal a lot of physical damage through spells as a primary role. Not the tanky derps who happen to have good spells :x [/quote] AD caster is someone who deals, sustained, spell based AD damage. They scale well with AD, CDR, and Armor penetration, and crit and attack speed are meh. The problem with a "glass cannon" AD caster, is that they can not deal their "sustained" damage. If you aren't dealing sustained damage, then the CDR is useless, and if you aren't tanky, you can't deal sustained damage, because after the first round of spells, you are dead. My build was hastily thought out, but it wasn't without reason. If you don't build tanky, you will die, and dead people do no damage. [quote=Searz] Yea, Talon is a true AD caster. [/quote] I think that urgot is what you would call a true "ad caster". Talon is more of a burst assassin type champ. Talon has an on hit which scales with crit, and the rest of his kit is a burst caster kit, not a sustained caster kit. If we are talking about burst casters, cdr is next to worthless. Sustained AD casters like urgot would cream themselves over a gold-efficient AD+CDR+Spell Vamp item.[/quote]

[quote=RCIX][quote=Temzilla] Talon has an on hit which scales with crit, and the rest of his kit is a burst caster kit, not a sustained caster kit. [/quote] OK, I don't have much to say about the rest of this post, but this part is [b]flat-out wrong.[/b] There is [b]zero[/b] scaling of Talon's Q with crit, and in fact IE is significantly worse on him than more flat damage. I'll quote you my math on this: [quote=RCIX] OK, Broke out the matchraft on this: I'll start with comparing just IE to just BT, at level 11 with L3 Q, L5 W, and L2 R (damage amp on E is ignored for the purposes of mathcrafting) Talon ratios: 0.3+1.2+1.2+1.8 = 4.5 Combo is e > autoattack > Q immediately > W > R R IE burst no crits (80 dmg): 80*4.5= 360 + 784 = 1144 + 2x AA (50+34.1+80) = 1472.2 IE burst 1 crit (80 dmg) 80*4.5= 360 + 784 = 1144 + 1x AA (50+34.1+80) + 1x crit ((50+34.1+80)*2.5) = 1714.35 IE burst 2 crits (80 dmg): 80*4.5= 360 + 784 = 1144 + 2x crit ((50+34.1+80)*2.5) = 1964.5 Estimated chance of 1 crit is ~25% and 2 crits is ~15% (guesstimation based on how crit chance works) BT longswords burst: (120 dmg): 120*4.5 = 540 + 784 = 1324 + 2x AA (50+34.1+120) = 1732.2 So, in a just IE case vs an equivalent amount in cost of raw AD, the raw AD gets you the same burst damage as the 1 crit IE case (which you only get 25% of the time). Average DPS is also higher, with the average DPS output from the IE being 1606.3 given the estimated percentage chances (drops lower if there's not as much chance for the 2 crit case). Now, let's consider 2 fullish builds: 3x BT, last whisper, and BF sword (13k) VS infinity edge, 2 bloodthirsters, last whisper, and a pickaxe (ever so slightly more expensive but still ~13k). 3x bt/last whisper/bf sword is 385 damage, ie/2bt/pickaxe is 345 damage Same combo, level 5 everything IE burst no crits (345 damage): 345*4.5= 1552.5 + 1020 = 2572.5 + 2x AA (50+55.8+345) = 3474.1 IE burst 1 crit (345 damage): 345*4.5= 1552.5 + 1020 = 2572.5 + 1x AA (50+55.8+345) + 1x crit ((50+55.8+345) * 2.5) = 4150.3 IE burst 2 crits (345 damage): 345*4.5= 1552.5 + 1020 = 2572.5 + 2x crit ((50+55.8+345) * 2.5) = 4826.5 Estimated chance of 1 crit is ~25% and 2 crits is ~15% (guesstimation based on how crit chance works) BT burst (385 damage): 385*4.5 = 1732.5 + 1020 = 2752.5 + 2x AA (50+55.8+385) = 3733.6 SO basically, you do get more damage output late game, but it hinges on getting crits still. Average DPS is also sliiightly higher (~100), but you end up sacrificing a chance for defensive itemization for it. You could itemize more heavily for crits (crc runes, [[phantom dancer]]s, maybe a [[youmuu's ghostblade]]), but then the burst really drops off in favor of sustained damage. And do i really have to explain why an assassin shouldn't be itemizing for the AD carry role? [/quote] IMO Talon is the only "true" melee AD caster: his job is to deal physical damage with spells, do tons of it and quickly, and then get out. Health on him is (mostly) for sissies :P All the other AD casters save Urgot (who I suppose I'd call the only true ranged AD caster) are melee and stuck building metagolem just because.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]RIIIIIVEEEEENNNN y no love for riven[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=RCIX] OK, I don't have much to say about the rest of this post, but this part is [b]flat-out wrong.[/b] There is [b]zero[/b] scaling of Talon's Q with crit, and in fact IE is significantly worse on him than more flat damage. I'll quote you my math on this: IMO Talon is the only "true" melee AD caster: his job is to deal physical damage with spells, do tons of it and quickly, and then get out. Health on him is (mostly) for sissies :P All the other AD casters save Urgot (who I suppose I'd call the only true ranged AD caster) are melee and stuck building metagolem just because. [/quote] His auto attacks can't crit? I didn't know that. Other AD mages are not REQUIRED to auto attack in order to use one of their abilities, for example Urgot or Ezreal. Talon doesn't deal sustained damage, so a caster item with CDR and spellvamp, is pretty bad on him, he wants pure AD, and Armor Pen, not CDR and Spell vamp. IF we define an "AD caster" item as an item with CDR and AD on it, then we have to also define an AD caster as someone who scales well with CDR and AD. Talon is therefore not an AD caster.[/quote]

[quote=DuffTime]Talon is a burst assassin and a true AD caster as well.[/quote]

[quote=Temzilla][quote=DuffTime] Talon is a burst assassin and a true AD caster as well. [/quote] AD caster implies that you are doing sustained damage imo. And in order to deal sustained damage, you have to be tanky, or be safe, like an AD carry.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]AD caster has nothing to do with sustained damage as far as I'm aware. It just implies you're using your skills as your main source of dealing damage and they scale well with AD.[/quote]