Ask a Diamond [Week 5: Bot lane]

[quote=NateDog13][quote=Mooninites] [quote=NateDog13] I'm personally still a fan of starting of with Doran's shield on both of them and then backing for a gold income item into boots into sighstone with yellow trinket swap to red. [/quote] Thats such a delay on vision, if you start [[Doran's shield]], it's pretty hard to get a g/10 item unless you get ahead in lane (i.e. a kill). [quote=NateDog13] Dropping more IP on runes aint worth it. I don't play enough for the IP flow I would need to make it optimal, and it works for me. [/quote] The point of this thread is called "ask a diamond", the idea is that you're giving people advice, you may as well tell people the most optimal set-ups rather than a welfare rune set-up [/quote] The delay on vision generally isn't a very large problems, for me, kills go down fast early in bot lane for my ELO so it's either get pushed in or dominate and control vision. And if you really feel like you don't want to delay your vision, start straight up with a income item, some lanes you can get away with it. In terms of my second answer, It was more geared towards in the lines of what I stated previously towards my IP generation, I'll just edit with the copy pasta, didn't mean it to sound as stupid as how it sounds compared to the other one. And regardless, I'm giving my answer to how I play and how I do things, don't like it? Don't take it then. I'm not deceiving anybody, I'm not forcing people to go my route, it's to get advice, just ignore my opinion if it really bothers you.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000][quote=Psiguard] I guess the question is, do armor quints give you enough effective health to make Doran's Blade suffice for early sustain or is lifesteal superior for surviving early laning? It's 8.5 armor versus 3% lifesteal, both with 5 on-hit healing and a health pot. Maybe the armor is actually better. [/quote] Some quick crappy maths, hopefully I didn't mess something up. I'm comparing Lifesteal quints to Health seals because that's much easier to work out and I figure the difference between 9 armour and 8.5 is too minor to significantly change the results. Assuming a starting AD of 74, 2 Lifesteal quints will heal you for 2.22 health per attack. This means that, at level 1, it requires 33 attacks (when you're not at full hp) for the healing from lifesteal quints to exceed the flat health from the yellows in the armour quint setup and give you a higher amount of effective health. If you consider that champions gain AD per level and the armour quint setup also has .5 less armour it's likely a little less than 33. The conclusion I draw from this is that lifesteal quints are still great in any lane where you know you'll be trading/being harassed over a long period and won't be engaging in all-in fights, at least early on. In fact I'd say they're still pretty good in general, at least for the laning phase. [size=1]Also they nerfed Doran's Blade to only heal for 3 on ranged champions.[/size][/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard][quote=Luther3000] [quote=Psiguard] I guess the question is, do armor quints give you enough effective health to make Doran's Blade suffice for early sustain or is lifesteal superior for surviving early laning? It's 8.5 armor versus 3% lifesteal, both with 5 on-hit healing and a health pot. Maybe the armor is actually better. [/quote] Some quick crappy maths, hopefully I didn't mess something up. I'm comparing Lifesteal quints to Health seals because that's much easier to work out and I figure the difference between 9 armour and 8.5 is too minor to significantly change the results. Assuming a starting AD of 74, 2 Lifesteal quints will heal you for 2.22 health per attack. This means that, at level 1, it requires 33 attacks (when you're not at full hp) for the healing from lifesteal quints to exceed the flat health from the yellows in the armour quint setup and give you a higher amount of effective health. If you consider that champions gain AD per level and the armour quint setup also has .5 less armour it's likely a little less than 33. The conclusion I draw from this is that lifesteal quints are still great in any lane where you know you'll be trading/being harassed over a long period and won't be engaging in all-in fights, at least early on. In fact I'd say they're still pretty good in general, at least for the laning phase.[/quote] Are you sure that's an adequate comparison? Armor quints should increase the value of your on-hit sustain and your [[health potion]], while lifesteal is just straight-up sustain. I'm not sure if the health comparison is close enough to armor to be a valid substitute. You may be right in your conclusion though -- maybe Korean ADCs are running armor to deal with potential early all-ins more than harass. [quote=Luther3000] [size=1]Also they nerfed Doran's Blade to only heal for 3 on ranged champions.[/size] [/quote] Whoops, I'll fix that.[/quote]

[quote=Luther3000]The thing is, it's the same amount of armour (well, 0.5 off) as you get while running lifesteal quints, assuming you use full armour seals. The health is the only real difference, at least the way I see it. With the pages I run the relevant stats look like this: +9 armour +3% lifesteal vs. +8.5 armour +72 health As you can see, the real difference there is the health versus the lifesteal - the armour doesn't meaningfully change. I'm sure it's possible to directly compare the quints but that sounds really complicated to do and I'm lazy, this way was much easier whilst still allowing for a fairly close estimation of the effects. The only liberty I took with it being a direct comparison was rounding up the armour. [quote=psiguard] You may be right in your conclusion though -- maybe Korean ADCs are running armor to deal with potential early all-ins more than harass. [/quote] Yeah, it's also worth noting that Lifesteal is relatively useless in a laneswap scenario since you won't generally be taking any harass damage.[/quote]

[quote=I want to be a Blitzball][[Ruby crystal]] or [[doran's shield]] if you don't play someone relying on [[spellthief's edge]] or a [[relic shield]] start?[/quote]

[quote=xIchi]^Coin! :D Or Doran's Shield[/quote]

[quote=Lugignaf][quote=xIchi] ^Coin! :D Or Doran's Shield [/quote] I feel like Coin's simply better 'cause it gives more potions, and the ability to start with a ward.[/quote]

[quote=I want to be a Blitzball]With a [[ruby crystal]] I buy 1 ward and 1 pot when having 515 gold, also [[relic shield]] on [[thresh]]?[/quote]

[quote=PsiGuard]I personally go with [[ruby crystal]] + 3 health pots if I'm not starting one of the gp10 items. I see no reason to start [[doran's shield]] on support anymore when [[ruby crystal]] gives you more pots and builds into [[sightstone]] on your first back. I also don't like starting with wards because you have two [[warding totem]]s in bot lane which should usually be enough for bush control and river vision.[/quote]

[quote=TROLLing1999]I currently have 3 ADC rune setups... The first is: AD Marks Armor Seals MR Glyphs 2 LS Quints and 1 AD Quint The second one: AD Marks 5 Armor Seals 4 HP seals(flat) MR Glyphs 2 AS Quints and 1 AD Quint And the other one: AD Marks HP seals(flat) MR Glyphs 2 Armor Quints and 1 AD Quint Which one should I use and when? Are there champions that work best with one of these three setups?[/quote]