Looking at the high ELO 
Janna guides on Mobafire, there seems to be a split between those who prefer utility/aura items (e.g. Talisman of Ascension Mikael's Blessing Locket of the Iron Solari Frozen Heart) and those who prefer to build AP (e.g. Frost Queen's Claim Rabadon's Deathcap Morellonomicon). I'm curious to find out in which camp you tend to fall and most importantly why. What kind of items do you tend to build on Janna and other characters that are similar to Janna (e.g. Lulu, Nami, Sona).
Thanks for the discussion on warding. I look forward to your video.
Janna guides on Mobafire, there seems to be a split between those who prefer utility/aura items (e.g. Talisman of Ascension Mikael's Blessing Locket of the Iron Solari Frozen Heart) and those who prefer to build AP (e.g. Frost Queen's Claim Rabadon's Deathcap Morellonomicon). I'm curious to find out in which camp you tend to fall and most importantly why. What kind of items do you tend to build on Janna and other characters that are similar to Janna (e.g. Lulu, Nami, Sona).Thanks for the discussion on warding. I look forward to your video.
MungoGeri wrote:
Looking at the high ELO Janna guides on Mobafire, there seems to be a split between those who prefer utility/aura items (e.g. Talisman of Ascension Mikael's Blessing Locket of the Iron Solari Frozen Heart) and those who prefer to build AP (e.g. Frost Queen's Claim Rabadon's Deathcap Morellonomicon). I'm curious to find out in which camp you tend to fall and most importantly why. What kind of items do you tend to build on Janna and other characters that are similar to Janna (e.g. Lulu, Nami, Sona).
Thanks for the discussion on warding. I look forward to your video.
Janna guides on Mobafire, there seems to be a split between those who prefer utility/aura items (e.g. Talisman of Ascension Mikael's Blessing Locket of the Iron Solari Frozen Heart) and those who prefer to build AP (e.g. Frost Queen's Claim Rabadon's Deathcap Morellonomicon). I'm curious to find out in which camp you tend to fall and most importantly why. What kind of items do you tend to build on Janna and other characters that are similar to Janna (e.g. Lulu, Nami, Sona).Thanks for the discussion on warding. I look forward to your video.
When you look at true high Elo gameplay (Master/Challenger) you see that there is way less of a divide: pretty much anyone goes true supportive unless they are super far ahead.
Why is that so? I'm going to copy paste an answer from another thread:
"Your goal as a support is to give your team optimal circumstances to perform well and that also means you're going to get more overall damage as a team if you just build stuff to make your team survive, rather than building damage yourself. "
So even though some supports have some scaling with AP, that scaling is usually so minor that it is better to just build supportive items and make sure your team stays alive as long as possible. If your ADC dies, you're not going to clean up all by yourself regardless, while your ADC can do so if you keep him alive.
Lulu is the only exception to this rule as she used to be played in solo lanes a lot, if you're super far ahead on her you can opt to build something like Morellonomicon.lanilwow wrote:
Expanding a bit on MungoGeri...
*moving our other discussion to here*
Looking at you op.gg profile you sometime run talisman of ascension and other times Frost Queen's Claim. Why do you take one over the other? What decides that?
*moving our other discussion to here*
Looking at you op.gg profile you sometime run talisman of ascension and other times
Frost Queen's Claim. Why do you take one over the other? What decides that?First things first,
Frost Queen's Claim (going to refer to is as FQC for simplicity) is a VERY POOR upgrade. AP is nothing but a luxury and the active is very mediocre. As you might've noticed, I usually get Spellthief's Edge and don't upgrade it at all.On the other hand, in terms of gold income and utility you get, the early upgrades from
Ancient Coin are very mediocre as well. Compared to the other two gold income items it gives the least stats and the least gold - on the other hand it is also the safest.Now
Janna doesn't benefit massively from a lot of damage on her spells, as most of her damage comes from Eye of the Storm, so Spellthief's Edge is a bit iffy on her if you are playing relatively passive (she only has autoattacks to get these gold stacks). If you combine that fact with mediocre late game utility from its upgrade FQC the choice for Ancient Coin is made.To summarize above: overall
Spellthief's Edge is a way better start on every ranged/ap support but Janna. On Janna it completely depends on how aggressively you're going to play the 2v2 botlane.One note on talisman of ascension is that it is a very useful upgrade if you're reliant on movement speed for engage/disengage. The extra movement speed can really help you engage fights or disengage when you're in a bad position as a team - so sometimes you may want to consider selling
Spellthief's Edge late game and getting talisman of ascension.
But you also make it easier to keep your team alive with ability power items. Janna scales really good with AP which is why many players prefer to go more mage like builds.
Morellonomicon is a good support item, was better before latest patch but still a good option and the debuff spreads like a plague with the whirlwind.
It's really common that mid laners buy it now as well so it's mostly overkill to have two of'em
Mikael's Blessing is the ultimate support item imo because of the active but I'm too lazy most of the time to pick it up unless I have to :D
+ it only gives 10% cdr :/
Active: Talisman of Ascension > Frost Queen's Claim
Stats: Talisman of Ascension < Frost Queen's Claim
Cheers!
Janna scales really good with AP which is why many players prefer to go more mage like builds. Morellonomicon is a good support item, was better before latest patch but still a good option and the debuff spreads like a plague with the whirlwind.It's really common that mid laners buy it now as well so it's mostly overkill to have two of'em
Mikael's Blessing is the ultimate support item imo because of the active but I'm too lazy most of the time to pick it up unless I have to :D+ it only gives 10% cdr :/
Active: Talisman of Ascension >
Frost Queen's ClaimStats: Talisman of Ascension <
Frost Queen's ClaimCheers!
Slappiz wrote:
But you also make it easier to keep your team alive with ability power items. Janna scales really good with AP which is why many players prefer to go more mage like builds.
Janna scales really good with AP which is why many players prefer to go more mage like builds.Correct, but when you're purely looking to aid your team 'real' support items are overall more effective, especially when you're playing close games where good use of
Mikael's Blessing can turn games.You can opt to get some AP after finishing your core, which is something I do when I'm ahead too but you can't just go full AP-ish.
Vynertje wrote:
Correct, but when you're purely looking to aid your team 'real' support items are overall more effective, especially when you're playing close games where good use of
Mikael's Blessing can turn games.You can opt to get some AP after finishing your core, which is something I do when I'm ahead too but you can't just go full AP-ish.
I usually go
Frost Queen's Claim, Morellonomicon and Rabadon's Deathcap/ Zhonya's Hourglass in most of my games. So "you can't just go full AP-ish" is kinda not true.
Just because you're a good Janna player + the fact that Janna is still an OP support + solo queue games are decided on laning rather than late game details doesn't mean it's a good thing to do :^)
That aside though, good use of active support items will win you a close game while AP will only snowball a won game. If you're snowballing as Janna, you're better off getting a Soulstealer IMO anyway due to cost efficiency. In my experience I find it hard to finish big AP items in very low-kill games and only able to get some in long, drawn out games.
Also, just to go back to the original question, other supports like Nami and Sona definitely cannot get away with it.
Besides the cheese factor, I did play against Volibear support a few times back when I was a bronze scrub myself and found him super hard to kill (obviously). So probably that combined with his ability to **** up low-mobility/ranged carries makes him a worthy cheese pick.
Honestly though, I have no clue and this is just theorycrafting.
That aside though, good use of active support items will win you a close game while AP will only snowball a won game. If you're snowballing as Janna, you're better off getting a Soulstealer IMO anyway due to cost efficiency. In my experience I find it hard to finish big AP items in very low-kill games and only able to get some in long, drawn out games.
Also, just to go back to the original question, other supports like
Nami and Sona definitely cannot get away with it.I want to be a Blitzball wrote:
Besides the cheese factor, I did play against
Volibear support a few times back when I was a bronze scrub myself and found him super hard to kill (obviously). So probably that combined with his ability to **** up low-mobility/ranged carries makes him a worthy cheese pick.Honestly though, I have no clue and this is just theorycrafting.
Vynertje wrote:
Just because you're a good Janna player + the fact that Janna is still an OP support + solo queue games are decided on laning rather than late game details doesn't mean it's a good thing to do :^)
That aside though, good use of active support items will win you a close game while AP will only snowball a won game. If you're snowballing as Janna, you're better off getting a Soulstealer IMO anyway due to cost efficiency. In my experience I find it hard to finish big AP items in very long, drawn out games.
That aside though, good use of active support items will win you a close game while AP will only snowball a won game. If you're snowballing as Janna, you're better off getting a Soulstealer IMO anyway due to cost efficiency. In my experience I find it hard to finish big AP items in very long, drawn out games.
Previous posts I was talking about soloQ. In 5v5 I'm more flexible since I can depend on my teammates more. In SoloQ i rather be as strong as possible to give my teammates strong shields and massive heals.
But it's not that often you even get to finish your core build in a game as support.
A question though, what is the thing with Janna being OP? Before worlds she was never in the spotlight and even considered mid/low tier support at the start-mid season 4. I don't recall her getting buffed and even though other supps got nerfed I still think it's a little bit weird.
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When you lose your bottom turret, you want to ward your jungle entrances so the enemy cannot roam through your jungle freely. You can put a pinkward a little bit more defensively to the left of what used to be wraiths or at the redbuff brushes.
Of course don't forget to keep some vision on and around dragon (keep an eye on the timers! You don't have to ward it 24/7 as long as you have enough wards down when it spawns) as that will always remain a major point of contention.
When you take a turret yourself, you essentially want to turn this around: you want to control the enemy jungle (instead of preventing them from controlling your jungle when they take yours) which means you need to get wards in the enemy jungle. Important spot to ward is the enemy buff on your side of the map, you can also ward a bit closer towards mid lane (the brushes to the left of blue) if you plan on taking that turret down asap.
In short, just like the question I answered above: you want to ward places of the map where fights are likely to happen. To estimate where a fight is going to happen, you need to have a look at where the map pressure is located, and turrets/dragons/barons are a good indicator of that. Have a look at the two maps I linked above to see how the zones shift. This of course works about the same way for bot lane.