Daughter Water [Gender Pay Inequality]

[quote=Jimmydoggga 2.0]I think I remember reading on the news about cases where women were fired from their low paying jobs from becoming pregnant, and that was an issue. I can't remember anything less than that being an issue. As for the rest of it, the whole thing seems to have happened too close to Gamergate for me to have a balanced opinion. (Because of the whole discrimination thing)[/quote]

[quote=koksei]women are weak so they get less money. /thread[/quote]

[quote=BlueArtist]shots fired..?[/quote]

[quote=The_Nameless_Bard]I'm physically stronger than most of my younger male coworkers .-.[/quote]

[quote=sirell]I'm also physically weaker than a fair number of my female co-dancers.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=jhoijhoi]Lol, that's my point, it's discrimination. You can't just choose not to hire someone because maybe they'd get pregnant. Just like you can't choose to not hire a disabled person because their "disability will interfere with their work". That's discriminatory. I don't make the rules, that's just how they stand; you can be sued for defending your employee choices with "their fat would interfere with work" or "his skin colour doesn't match our decor".[/quote] Sirell brought up the exact counter-point I was gonna bring up, but I started writing this before his comment landed, so I'll just finish it: You're really gonna go that route, huh? Is it then not wrong to choose somebody intelligent over somebody stupid for your job? Is that not discrimination too? Is it not discrimination to choose somebody skilled over somebody unskilled for a job? Heck, if "pregnancy discrimination" is actual discrimination and should be removed then we should we not just ignore job interviews entirely and just hire applicants on random? Because otherwise you'd be discriminating against the other applicants. Not to mention the fact that "pregnacy discrimination" doesn't actually fit the definition of discrimination: "Discrimination is action that denies social participation or human rights to categories of people based on prejudice." We should add the definition of prejudice to make that definition even more clear: "Preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience." Being pregnant factually reduces a persons ability to work (see below), thus prejudice automatically does not apply and neither does discrimination. [quote=jhoijhoi]"Potential pregnancy means discrimination against employees who may become pregnant or who are believed to be pregnant." Pragmatism is a belief that a certain way is more practical; do you really believe a pregnant woman is less capable of performing a job to the same level as before the pregnancy? Does a woman suddenly become incapacitated during pregnancy? In terms of practicality, sure, it can be practical to have a man at work 9-5 every day for a year, as opposed to a woman having to leave after a certain time - but this practically completely ignores how successful the woman makes the company.[/quote] Not only are you taking an angled approach to this point, but you're also ignoring the fact that pregnancy reduces a persons productivity. Being pregnant means that you have an embryo in your belly that is [b]feeding off your energy[/b]. - Fact. Being pregnant means that you will experience negative effects such as the ones mentioned by Sirell. How many, which ones and the severity obviously differs from person to person, but pregnancy ALWAYS has negative effects. And when making a fair comparison; assuming that all other factors such as commitment are the same before and during the pregnancy the result is clear: pregnancy reduces a persons productivity. In this comparison the severity of the negative effects is moot; it does not matter since the other side of the comparison does not experience them at all. As to how it's clear that you're taking an angled approach here: you're not assuming that other factors are equal. If you were to make a fair, non-biased comparison between a man and a woman you would have to assume that both are exactly as good at their work. This is sexism at work on your part. [quote=jhoijhoi]However, what I just wrote above is again, a stereotype, as a [url=http://www.theguardian.com/sport/video/2014/jun/28/professional-athlete-alysia-montano-800m-race-34-weeks-pregnant-video]pregnant woman's ability to do what she sets her mind on[/url] is only limited by what she wants to do. My ultimate point is, just because a woman is pregnant, they don't automatically become sub par workers in all conditions. But many people do believe that women don't work as efficiently when they're pregnant. The problem is in the mindset of negativity.[/quote] Oh my god. Your link even provides proof of what we have been saying and you use it as a counter-point, [b]still not seeing the point[/b]. [quote=jhoijhoi]Leaving a country is different from being part of a company and getting pregnant. Getting pregnant is the choice of the woman, not the choice of the employer.[/quote] So you're saying that leaving a country is not the choice of the woman? Your reasoning is broken. [quote=jhoijhoi]Sirell, it's not okay to think this way. Some women work a week before they are due to give birth and are not affected by those symptoms above. You can't just assume that a woman will work subpar due to "expected symptoms". Even then, as a work employer, you should be making accommodations for a pregnant woman, not firing them because they're pregnant. I have so much more to say, but my friend is over now and they're more important than trying to convey to you that your opinions of pregnancy AND women is outdated, misogynistic and discriminatory. "Sorry, we can't hire you, you're fertile!"[/quote] Wooow, you just made a complete ass out of yourself. What the actual fuck Jhoi? [quote=jhoijhoi]Isn't that what I said? Your opinion is that is isn't discrimination when the law/state says it is. If my opinion was that the moon was made of cheese and the fact of the matter is that the moon is not made of cheese, my opinion would be wrong. [quote=sirell] I apologise for what may be perceived as 'immaturity', but if I said 'apology accepted', I'd be lying.[/quote] Apology accepted. [...] I know when I've been a dick and said something I shouldn't have, and genuinely want to take back the hurt.[/quote] This does not strike me as sincere at all, you're just trying to cover your ass. You're making yourself out to be a bigger dick with every comment you make.. [quote=jhoijhoi]I'm pretty glad I'm in the education industry :3[/quote] And I'm pretty sure most people in this thread are not. What is the world gonna come to with sexists like you teaching the young? Yes, you are sexist. You have several times in this thread given favorable treatment to women in points or comparisons(some even pointed out in this comment), which means you're discriminating against men, based on prejudice. "Sexism or gender discrimination is prejudice or discrimination based on a person's sex or gender." You might be the biggest sexist in the thread, regardless of what your "equality" mindset might lead you to believe. [quote=jhoijhoi][s]However, Sirell is claiming that even if the pregnant/planning to be pregnant mother has more qualifications than another woman, he'd rather hire the woman with no plans for pregnancy (and less qualifications) due to his view that pregnancy reduces a woman's ability to work (including days off due to maternity leave).[/s] < This is my assumption, due to my analysis of what he's been saying; it may not actually be the case, let's wait and see.[/quote] This is insane. You're beyond dense. I got exactly what he meant even before he explained it in a comment further down. He clearly meant that [b]this is a tradeoff that the employer has to decide on[/b]. The important part being that the employer needs to be able to CHOOSE which employee he would rather have, not being forced to choose the pregnant woman in fear of lawsuit.[/quote]

[quote=Jovy]Isn't really any of my business, but I think some people should tone it down with the insults here.[/quote]

[quote=jhoijhoi][center][img=http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-a3p1pP0M5Wo/T7MTDxQdKyI/AAAAAAAAAko/QmpPYq0_qjE/s1600/tumblr_m2mgy0ZnQc1qai4qwo1_r1_500.gif][/center] Please keep this discussion going; despite the negativity, I've been exposed to rather... interesting views... and it has certainly given me a lot of discussion material to bring with me to work. If you can find any other inconsistencies in my posts, point them out; I'd hate to give my students any misconceptions. I know this is a public forum, but before I print off every response to bring with me to class (even the off-topic posts) for my students to discuss, just thought I'd give everyone the opportunity to delete their posts or contact me to omit their quotes from my own posts. I feel that my students will learn a lot about discrimination in the workplace from reading this thread. (If you participated in this thread, it'd be great - but not necessary - if you could state what country you spent the majority of your life in, so as a class we can discuss any socio-cultural implications of opinions) Thanks guys! Edit: Thanks Jovana. I was feeling the heat a little there ^^[/quote]

[quote=Meiyjhe][quote=jhoijhoi] Please keep this discussion going; despite the negativity, I've been exposed to rather... interesting views... and it has certainly given me a lot of discussion material to bring with me to work. If you can find any other inconsistencies in my posts, point them out; I'd hate to give my students any misconceptions. I know this is a public forum, but before I print off every response to bring with me to class (even the off-topic posts) for my students to discuss, just thought I'd give everyone the opportunity to delete their posts or contact me to omit their quotes from my own posts. I feel that my students will learn a lot about discrimination in the workplace from reading this thread. (If you participated in this thread, it'd be great - but not necessary - if you could state what country you spent the majority of your life in, so as a class we can discuss any socio-cultural implications of opinions) Thanks guys! Edit: Thanks Jovana. I was feeling the heat a little there ^^[/quote]Wait what :o Uhm... First of all, was this all meant as some educational stuff or a real discussion? Or did you just plan to hand it out after all the discussions already happened? Second of all, wouldn't it be a better idea to ask for permission to print comments instead of saying that you will print them out unless we delete comments ourselves? There also have been some insults thrown around by some people, will they also be shared unless those comments are editted? Finally, you can do whatever you want with my posts. I am Dutch if you didnt know already.[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=MissMaw]Isn't really any of my business, but I think some people should tone it down with the insults here.[/quote] I hope Jhoi is included among those, because groundlessly calling people sexist, misogynistic and discriminatory isn't exactly appropriate. [quote=caucheka]statistically, men want to get a high paying job and support their family while women want a job that is statistically easier, requires less hours, and is closer to home so they may continue to raise the children. this isn't something made by society to try to keep women down, this is basic fucking human nature. hell, most animals follow similar 'gender roles'. it does not mean that women can't go out and do things men do or vice versa, just that it is 'favorable' by genetics.[/quote] Actually, no. This is not basic human nature. This is learned behavior. Humans have very little instinct, most of our behavior is learned. I watched a great video on this recently, but I can't find the link, sorry. But essentially, the differences in behavior between the sexes are not due to innate instinct, but due to learned behavior from their peers and caregivers. The reason why women are statistically more likely to enter less dangerous work is due to them being taught to avoid dangerous things to a larger extent than men. [quote=caucheka]yes, we have come a long way in the past 60 or so years in bringing equal rights between the sexes, and yes, there is still more that could be done, not just to make things more equal for women, but there are also a lot of things that are unjustly unfavorable towards men that need to be fixed. but as long as men continue to be men, and women continue to be women, we will never be 100% truly equal.[/quote] This is true however. [quote=Embracing]I think arguments for "gender equality" in modern society are really getting out of hand. The general public arguing for feminism is gradually starting to expect compensation for natural disadvantages just by slapping on some phrases like "discrimination" and "gender equality".[/quote] Yes, agreed. Equality means equality in rights, not compensation for disadvantages.[/quote]