MOBAFire Lend me your Wisdom! ~Comprehensive...

[quote=Searz]^Janna actually counters Udyr to some extent. She can kite him like hell. I'm also pretty sure Zilean beats Annie. Garen might actually counter morde. His long ASS silence is painful if you don't have a shield up.[/quote]

[quote=JunSupport]Anyone who can silence or poke counters Mordekaiser now. His shield is a lot easier to break lately.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]You mean he's shit after the nerf. I'd be interested in seeing how he'll fare without any health costs on skills.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995]Vayne and Karthus are adequate counters to cho'gath, but not quite in the way you'd expect. Cho'gath is strong in about a million ways - strong in lane, naturally durable, lots of damage and lots of AoE CC. After ruminating on this subject for a while, I think that Karthus would be a good counter to Cho'Gath in lane. Cho'Gath has 2 things in lane that make him strong (excluding his ultimate): 1. Heavy, consistent, costless DPS in the form of [[vorpal spikes]]. 2. Long-range knock-up and long-range silence. So, to counter 1, you need range. Put [[caitlyn]], [[annie]], or anyone else against cho'gath and you can hit him from afar. HOWEVER, he still has that knock-up! Anyone durable enough to not be hit hard by [[rupture]] is melee range. Anyone with range to counter [[vorpal spikes]] is too squishy. So, why do I propose karthus to lane against cho'gath? Karthus has range - he can last hit and harass cho'gath very consistently. Karthus can kite cho'gath - if cho'gath manages to get a knockup on karthus, he just turns on his [[defile]] and uses [[wall of pain]]. Cho'gath takes damage if he tries to DPS with [[vorpal spikes]], and he probably can't even get in range. So, to beat cho'gath in lane: [[karthus]] with [[boots of speed]] as a first item (to avoid [[rupture]]). By the way, this is pure theorycraft. It'd be best to test this beforehand, but I'm fairly certain it'd work. Now, why is vayne a counter to cho'gath? Late game, cho'gath brings 3 things: 1. heavy, AoE CC. 2. natural durability. 3. heavy true damage nuke. Basically, the way cho'gath operates in game is he initiates with [[rupture]], charges in and uses [[feast]] on the AD carry, and then runs around hitting people with [[vorpal spikes]] and [[feral scream]]. So, what does vayne offer to counter this? 1. [[tumble]] to escape [[rupture]]. 2. [[silver bolts]] to counter tankiness. Once the enemy AD carry gets caught in [[rupture]] ONCE, any good team will annihilate them. It's absolutely unacceptable to get caught by that rupture. In this way, [[ashe]] will get completely wrecked by cho'gath because she's slow as balls with no escape or anything. Vayne will [[tumble]] away from rupture and live to see another day. I currently can't think of any other AD carries that have dashes good enough to escape rupture in a moment's notice, mostly due to the casting time ([[rocket jump]] and [[90 caliber net]] zzz). [[ezreal]] or [[corki]] are probably the next best counters, due to their fast blinks and good poke (so they can stay far, far away from cho). Vayne also has her [[silver bolts]], which will tear through any tank/tanky DPS. Silver bolts simply aren't a counter to cho, but to everyone tanky. Vayne is just the best counter to cho because she has the best dash to escape his rupture, and the best skill to tear him down. TL;DR vayne and karthus counter cho'gath.[/quote]

[quote=Searz]I don't think Karthus counters Cho. Maybe a soft counter, at best. I think Vayne counters him to some extent though. If Cho can land a silence (which isn't that hard) she can't tumble out of Rupture.[/quote]

[quote=JEFFY40HANDS]People forget Cho'Gath's passive makes him impossible to push from lane in most 1v1 scenarios.[/quote]

[quote=Trojan995][quote=Searz] I don't think Karthus counters Cho. Maybe a soft counter, at best. I think Vayne counters him to some extent though. If Cho can land a silence (which isn't that hard) she can't tumble out of Rupture. [/quote] I would agree that karthus is a soft counter at best. However, after pondering who beats cho in lane, I really couldn't come up with many champions who wouldn't be wrecked by either his vorpal spikes or his rupture. Karthus is the best bet, imo. One of the reasons cho'gath is so strong is that he has no true counters. My explanations were more of an attempt to minimize strengths than to capitalize on weaknesses. Cho's rupture is significantly longer range than feral scream, and 99% of the time cho will initiate with rupture. Avoiding the initiation is really the most key part, and for that I think vayne is best.[/quote]

[quote=Wayne3100][quote=Khazem] Cho'Gath: countered by Garen, Udyr, Vayne - Garen counters pretty much any champion that relies on getting in melee range to last hit, not even Cho'Gath can deal with a Q -> E or even outsustain it (he needs to be in melee range of creeps to get his health back in which case Garen just takes even more health), Udyr can also just outdamage his sustain while Cho can't do anything back (both Garen and Udyr are not only from what I've seen/experienced but also been said by probably the best Cho'Gath player in the world, HotshotGG) [/quote] Udyr's damage is too high to ignore for Cho'gath, that much is true. He doesn't necessarily gets owned by an Udyr, but I can see why you mentioned him as a counter. Garen? That's just ridiculous. Yes, Cho'gath has to be in melee range to lasthit, but do you really think that a good Cho'gath will LET himself get Q+E'd by Garen? A good Cho KNOWS Garen will try to silence him and then spin and will easily counter that by silencing and possibly even rupturing Garen. Not a counter at all, to be honest. Btw, is this topic a "hey I wanna make a guide but don't wanna do the hard work, could you guys do that for me"- sort of topic or what? :P[/quote]

[quote=Searz][quote=Trojan995] I really couldn't come up with many champions who wouldn't be wrecked by either his vorpal spikes or his rupture. Karthus is the best bet, imo.[/quote] Garen is the best counter right now imo. Garen because he can keep you from killing minions safely and has no resource system to worry about. Garen iz STRONK[/quote]

[quote=XamuraiShogun]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AtgcftLk7H3CdFhOTDZxRXdVWFJSUFdjbGpJUGE3cHc&hl=en_US#gid=0 This is a link to a ROUGH DRAFT of what I have so far, When I made all of it, Son I was a dissappoint Look how many we havent touched Sincerely Mr. Shogun[/quote]